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117

Poland aims for up to a million mines on eastern borders (tvpworld.com)

submitted 3 days ago by CAVOK to c/europe@feddit.org

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[–] Potato@feddit.org 6 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Shit, I hate mines as much as the next guy, but against a Russia who doesn't care about any kind of laws or rules of war you have to use all the tools at your disposal to keep them away.

Europe should probably invest in some kind of European FASCAM alternative. So in the event the Russians actually do launch an attack we can absolutely cover the roads, fields, and forests their side of the border several kilometres deep with mines. While we bunker down and just keep draining their resources on clearing mines in their own land.

[–] orgrinrt 13 points 2 days ago

Fuck, never thought I’d agree with something like this and actually think the reasoning I give myself, to let myself agree with such obviously bad stuff, makes sense.

It’s so fucking depressing. While I don’t live in Poland, I live in a Russia-bordering country with similar stuff having been debated for a very long time, and still today, though as I understand it, we never gave up our mines in the first place, for reasons that now make perfect sense and seem good, but without hindsight never seemed good in the past and seemed simply wrong.

We do A, that’s very bad and leaves us open for attack, which doesn’t seem like such fantasy today, when Ukraine is under such an attack. But say we do B… that’s morally reprehensible and just outright bad, too.

I can’t reason about these things, because it just ends up feeling like I am abandoning my principles and some ethical standards I’ve long held… but then again I can’t rightly go against these things either, because they seem perfectly rational deterrents right now, to avoid a majorly fucked up situation down the road.

I feel like I’m losing myself as a human, as a conscious being, because the reality no longer matches the expectations I’ve had and the “rules” I’ve long maintained do exist.

But is it better to now feel like you’re betraying yourself, to potentially help defend future generations from having to lose themselves in a similar manner? Or is it better to stay true to myself and potentially help the fall of our current progressive, socially even impressive situation, after which the principles I stood so true to, are no longer even a possibility? Or does choosing the former actually lead to the increase of the chance of future looking equally bleak and unstable?

I don’t know. I don’t fucking know. And I hate it.

[–] Wahots@pawb.social 8 points 2 days ago

Depressing as hell, but I don't really see another great option. Y'all better be hardening your borders with Russia and getting your militaries prepared. 50% of our country either betrayed us, or betrayed us by not voting. I don't see us getting back to normal for 10-20 years, based on the amount of damage they are doing to our country ATM.

I feel terrible for our friends and allies. :/

[–] federalreverse@feddit.org 21 points 3 days ago (2 children)

That would probably randomly kill refugees, wouldn't it?

[–] nightwatch_admin@feddit.nl 9 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Belarusian ones? Probably.

[–] federalreverse@feddit.org 8 points 2 days ago

Not just those, Putin and Lukashenko have variously urged groups of Syrians etc. to cross the EU border, in an attempt to destabilize the EU.

[–] brot@feddit.org 17 points 3 days ago (4 children)

I have no concept of mines - is that a lot or just a small amount for that area?

[–] cows_are_underrated@feddit.org 14 points 2 days ago

According to wikipedia The border between Poland and Russia is 232km long. So one million mines spread out over 232 km would come down to one mine ever 23cm. So yeah, this is a lot.

[–] truthfultemporarily@feddit.org 20 points 3 days ago (1 children)

So north Korean border has around two million.

[–] Mycatiskai@lemmy.ca -1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

If they were put there by North Korea, are 90% of them made of cardboard like the display fruit in their fake supermarkets?

[–] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 days ago

Landmines are really easy, so probably not

[–] Theoriginalthon 8 points 3 days ago

Assuming Belarus and russian (kilingrad) borders 626km in length, assume 1 km deep 626km^2, million/626= 1597

Then 1km2/ 1597 = 626

So 1 in every 20x30m space

If only 500m deep then one every 20x15m

That about the size of a house and garden

[–] dditty@lemm.ee 6 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I would think a million is a lot for any amount of anything except for like grains of rice

[–] GeeDubHayduke@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 days ago

"I love rice when I'm hungry and want 2,000 of something."

[–] makingrain@lemm.ee 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Good time to start planning. Well done, Poland.

[–] cows_are_underrated@feddit.org 6 points 2 days ago (3 children)

I dont know, but mines are generally a really shitty technology. In other regions of the world there are still people dying to this day, because of uncleared mines. This will also kill a lot of refugees who try to come into the EU.

[–] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The problem isn't the known minefields. Those are fine, you can put a big fucking fence around it and place a sign.

The danger is all the non-marked minefields. All the random mines placed by small units for tactical reasons, all the stuff that wasn't recorded anywhere. The fields Ukraine place in Ukraine aren't the problem, they know where those are. The ones Russia places are a problem, because (judging by the fact that russians still occasionally run into their own mines) they don't even know where they are.

[–] cows_are_underrated@feddit.org 2 points 2 days ago

The Problem with known minefields is,that if enough time passes, without the fields getting cleared, people might forget about it and then you have one hell of a problem.

[–] MigratingApe@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Real refugees who try to come into the EU are welcomed to enter through designated border crossings.

[–] cows_are_underrated@feddit.org -1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You do know, that Poland has been recorded to perform pushbacks on its borders? And now you can guess why people dont want to enter the country through official ways. Also a lot of refugees dont want to seek asylum in Poland, but in other EU countries so entering through official ways might be suboptimal for them.

Also simply saying "Just enter the country through official ways" disregards the situation those refugees are often I to where they have to fear to get pushed back to Die in the wild. No matter what you will do people will always use unofficial ways.

[–] MigratingApe@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

You do know, that Poland has been recorded to perform pushbacks on its borders?

Yes, I live here.

And now you can guess why people dont want to enter the country through official ways.

No, I don’t, it has nothing to do with pushbacks. Pushbacks were for those who were trying to cross the border illegally in the first place.

Also a lot of refugees dont want to seek asylum in Poland, but in other EU countries so entering through official ways might be suboptimal for them.

Suboptimal?! You know what, tell me your address. I will steal your car because earning money to buy myself my own is suboptimal for me. And maybe we also should provide free healthcare to poor Americans in Europe because them paying for their own is suboptimal for them.

Crossing a border of any EU country is synonymous with entering EU as a whole. Polish border is EU border.

disregards the situation those refugees

They have chosen to enter Belarus or Russia, they were given protection on Russian and Belarusian territory already, why not stay there if this is only about survival? They are no longer refugees when entering Poland, they are migrants and as such are no longer protected under the same rules. And this is what you are describing, choosing a destination country not to escape harm in the first place but to seek one with better social benefits. In this scenario I see no reason for them to forcefully enter EU illegally without following our laws: again, they were already allowed to enter Russian and/or Belarusian territory and have escaped the immediate threat if they really are refugees.

https://emergency.unhcr.org/sites/default/files/2023-05/UNHCR%2C%20Refugees%20and%20Migrants%20-%20Frequently%20Asked%20Questions%2C%20Aug%202018.pdf

Now, if we talk about Ukrainian refugees, I did not hear any of them complaining about pushbacks or being deported or about mines being deployed on our border. You know why? Because they are civilized people who know how to behave and how to properly cross a border.

And we provided help for almost a million of them.

[–] makingrain@lemm.ee 0 points 2 days ago

Careful with your logic!

[–] makingrain@lemm.ee 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

What do you suggest instead?

[–] cows_are_underrated@feddit.org -2 points 2 days ago (3 children)

First of all: Literally everything else.

Secondly: Russia is failing to invade Ukraine for 3 years. Do you really think that we are anywhere close to having a war between Russia and NATO? I think its kinda sad seeing all this fearmongering that Russia is about to attack us tomorrow while they still fail to invade Ukraine.

[–] makingrain@lemm.ee 4 points 2 days ago

A good thing you're not in charge of military planning.

[–] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

This is vastly preferable to other measures, because a good ~~fences~~ lines of defense make for good neighbors. Letting the Russians know there's mines there, that Poland is totally fine with killing one million russians stepping across the border, sends one hell of a message.

[–] GeeDubHayduke@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 days ago

And if Trump forces a "peace" deal? Allows Russia to upgrade, rearm and recruit? Which is very much in the cards, atm. Better to have and not need, than to need and not have.