this post was submitted on 05 Aug 2023
35 points (84.3% liked)

Comradeship // Freechat

263 readers
1 users here now

Talk about whatever, respecting the rules established by Lemmygrad. Failing to comply with the rules will grant you a few warnings, insisting on breaking them will grant you a beautiful shiny banwall.

A community for comrades to chat and talk about whatever doesn't fit other communities

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

This dude has a political science major... I tried telling him that in social democracy the workers don't own the means of production so it's still capitalism, but he doesn't listen. I remember went he stopped supporting my country's (Netherlands) neoliberal party (D66) and started supporting PvdA, our socialdemocratic party. I was hopeful that he was slowly turning to the left, but nothing's changed. What are some arguments against socialdemocracy that a social democrat might listen to?

top 13 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 31 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Well, your brother doesn't understand what capitalism is. Social democrats don't want workers to own the means of production; they're extremely naive liberals at best, or imperialists in disguise at worst. Social democracy was created as a counter to actual socialism, and after the illegal dissolution of the USSR, social democratic parties across Europe have been slowly dismantling any social welfare nets. The main reason why they haven't destroyed some institutions (e.g. the NHS in the UK) is because it would have a disastrous effect on public opinion (but they can certainly sabotage the institutions in less obvious ways, e.g. underfunding).

Social democracy in the imperial core is also dependent on the exploitation of the periphery. With more and more nationalist coups and socialist revolutions in the Global South, this will become blatantly obvious to the people of Europe.

It's worth noting that countries like Brazil (under the current government) could be considered social democracies, but they're fundamentally different from the ones in Europe in that they're anti-imperialist and cooperate with other anti-imperialist countries.

You could try showing him Second Thought's video on the subject.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

You give Lula too much credit. He's cutting funding for stuff just the same right now, just doesn't have absolute shit foreign policy.

Also, Lula literally invaded Haiti on behalf of the UN in 2004, with forces only leaving in 2017.

As an example, Lula is currently launching initiatives for Public-Private Partnerships, which include fucking prisons. Would also like to note he signed the drug law that shot incarceration sky high in 2006 and remains to this day. Among plans for these prisons is "industrial prisons" aka prisoner slave labour

https://www.jornalbomdia.com.br/noticia/63750/sindppen-rs-volta-a-barrar-na-justica-ppp-para-novo-presidio-em-erechim

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Yeah, my point was about the foreign policy, not domestic. And as you said, the government under Lula did participate in the invasion of Haiti, but it's still a far cry from what the socdem countries in Europe have done and continue to do

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

I think this might support the point that socdems are capitalists even more though. They just say they'll do things for the people then just don't when they're in power.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago

Social democracy in the imperial core is also dependent on the exploitation of the periphery. With more and more nationalist coups and socialist revolutions in the Global South, this will become blatantly obvious to the people of Europe.

I feel like Polish people are slowly getting the taste of their own medicine. Anti-Ukrainian sentiment (against the Ukrainians already here trying to bring home the bacon, not against the Zelensky government), getting super reactionary about protecting The Borders™ (and the neolib party scolding fucking PiS for being too good to migrants/refugees), etc. Poland is becoming more similar to the Western™ countries.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 11 months ago

I also blame a lack of marxist party for this. I was talking to my mom yesterday and she asked me whether or not I will vote in november. I want to vote but I have honestly no idea what to vote. The most left option is GL/PvdA and they are socdems at best like you say.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Ur bro just needs to read the first chapter of State and revolution. Tho he probably will cry when Lenin calls him a petty-bourgeois democrat with near-socialist phraseology and a phillistine 😅

[–] flimsyberry 10 points 11 months ago

You could take into account the austerity that has been a big part of the change under social democratic rule in recent history, which has been capitalistic. Privatizing medical care, public transit, etc. Which has increased prices, reduced given service, etc. Transferring public interest to private interest leads to a shift in focus, as in from serving the public to serving the owners and thus profit.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

This video is a good intro, created by some swedish communist student org.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

this is fantastic, thank you

[–] Nioxic -5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

I dont think it HAS to be capitalistic.. but.. it is most of the time?

I live in denmark where our previous government was the social democratic party.

And the current government is them, plus some of the more.. centric leaning right parties.

Theyre all essentially the same .. lol :(

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago

I recommend you reading the first chapter of State and revolution by Lenin.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago

Social democracy went through major shifts in the last century that it no more relates to its (non-marxian) leftist roots. Contemporary socdem even promotes the Third Way, an effectively neoliberal movement.

I found this insightful article about the evolution of socdem.