this post was submitted on 17 Jan 2025
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Yeah, I think massive chemical batteries for storing excess electricity to facilitate a contrived green energy market is a bad idea.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 days ago (6 children)

This is why you don't use battery chemistries that can ~~thermally run away~~ autoignite in grid storage. The plant was using LG JH4 batteries, which use an NMC chemistry. I don't think that LiFePO4 cells were as ubiquitous when this plant was first constructed, so the designers opted for something spicy instead.

This shit is why you use LiFePO4. It can't ~~thermally run away~~ autoignite, it lasts longer, and the reduced energy density doesn't really matter for grid storage. Plus, it doesn't use nickel or cobalt so the only conflict resource is lithium.

EDIT: LiFePO4 batteries can enter thermal runaway, but they can't autoignite.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 2 days ago (30 children)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Mechanical energy storage, like pumped hydro or flywheel. Thermal energy storage, like molten salt.

Electrochemical isn't entirely off the table either: less-volatile chemistries are available, and better containment methods can reduce risks.

Non-electrical chemical storage methods are available: electrical energy can be used for hydrogen electrolysis, or Fischer-Tropsch hydrocarbon fuels. Fuel cells, and traditional ICE generators can recover the energy put into those (relatively) stable fuels, or we can export it from the electrical generation industry to the transportation industry.

There's also avoiding (or minimizing) the need for storage at all, with "demand shaping". Basically, we radically overbuild solar, wind, wave, tidal, etc. Normally, that would tank energy prices and be unprofitable, but we also build out some massive, flexible demand to buy this excess power. Because they are extremely overbuilt, the minimal output from these sources during suboptimal conditions is more than enough to meet normal demands; we just shut off the flexible additional demand we added. We "shape" our "demand" to match what we are able to supply.

[–] [email protected] -5 points 1 day ago (8 children)

There’s also avoiding (or minimizing) the need for storage at all, with “demand shaping”. Basically, we radically overbuild solar, wind, wave, tidal, etc. Normally, that would tank energy prices and be unprofitable, but we also build out some massive, flexible demand to buy this excess power. Because they are extremely overbuilt, the minimal output from these sources during suboptimal conditions is more than enough to meet normal demands; we just shut off the flexible additional demand we added.

Bingo.

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[–] Valmond 13 points 2 days ago

A really strong elastic band.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

Lifting your mom with a pulley.

[–] monkeyman512 1 points 2 days ago

I believe there is battery tech that is newer but being deployed into production that is iron based. It is heavier and less energy dense than lithium. But for power grid level deployment that should be fine and iron is a bit harder to catch on fire.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

No, it's not, at least not at scale, because you need specific geography and plenty of water. Why do you think we are not massively using it?

[–] tehWrapper 2 points 2 days ago

Can prob dig a whole system the same as they did to get all the materials for this mess.

The water would also not be useless like all the water used to process the battery materials.

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[–] A_A 11 points 2 days ago (5 children)

... 3000-megawatt Moss Landing energy storage ...

"megawatt" is not a quantity of energy.
Also, are those battery fires more frequent // important than petrol ones ?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Also, are those battery fires more frequent // important than petrol ones ?

Petrol fires use oxygen from the air. They can be extinguished by removing the oxygen: covering it in firefighting foam, or displacing it with CO2, for example.

Batteries contain both their fuel and their oxidizer together in one case. You can't remove the oxygen. So long as they are hot enough, they keep burning, even if they are underwater. The only way to extinguish them is to remove the heat. Which is practically impossible.

[–] A_A 1 points 1 day ago

Good point.
And so, i would expect large accidents in tunnels in next decades that will prompt laws & regulation to restrict electric vehicles from (access to) tunnels ...

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago

No. And the petrol fires are many and ongoing in everyone's cars. Also large petrol fires are not always reported in the US. I can think of one specific instance that tho' a major fire, producing a wall of smoke, yet I could only find one news report of it's existence.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

How is a Megawatt not a measure of energy?

[–] Valmond 8 points 2 days ago (7 children)

It's power, not energy.

MegaWattHours is energy for example.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Enlighten us with better approach. Also there are battery types that are less flammable.

Edit: is -> us

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago
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