this post was submitted on 11 May 2024

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German lawmakers support plans to protect Ukrainian airspace from NATO territory by means of Western air defense (www.faz.net)

submitted 7 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

18 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Archived unpaywalled link (in German)

Leading members of the German Bundestag from the CDU, FDP and Greens are considering the possibility of protecting parts of the airspace over Ukraine from NATO territory with Western air defense.

The example of Israel, where air defense units from the US, Great Britain, France and other countries repelled an Iranian air attack in April, shows that participating states do not necessarily have to become "the war party", they argue.

The idea have been put forward by military experts like Nico Lange from the Munich Security Conference. In Lange's view, this could create a "safe zone of up to 70 kilometres wide" on Ukraine's borders to Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania.

Roderich Kiesewetter German from the conservative party CDU told the German paper "Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung" that such a deployment at the eastern border of NATO could shoot down 'unmanned Russian missiles' over Ukraine", relieving the Ukrainian air defense and enable it to "protect the front", he says.

Marcus Faber of the ruling party FDP, who is supposed to be the future head of the defense committee, also noted that "the airspace over the Ukrainian border regions" could in principle be protected "by air defense systems on NATO territory".

"I think that this is possible," said Faber.

Agnieszka Brugger from the ruling Green party also supported the idea of "deploying air defense systems at the borders of the neighbouring states so that the western parts of Ukraine can also be protected". Anton Hofreiter from the Green party and chairman of the European Committee shares Brugger's view, according to the paper.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 months ago (3 children)

honestly I don't get why this was not the case from the get go. US has done no fly zones all the time.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 7 months ago

Usually not against nuclear-armed opponents

[–] [email protected] 5 points 7 months ago

Do you know how no-fly zones are enforced? There is nothing Russia can do if Germany shoots down a jet that wanders over Macklenberg. Thats why nothing came from Turkey shooting down Russian jets back in 2014. But shooting down a Russian jet which never entered NATO airspace is an act of war. It's the difference between punching someone trying to enter your home versus punching them for trying to sit at the table next to you at a restaurant.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago

We need more Ukrainians to die and situation to become more dire, clearly.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 7 months ago

Now protect Palestinians from Israel.

[–] Rapidcreek -2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

This is a provocative move. NATO had better agree to this, not just the Germans

[–] [email protected] 13 points 7 months ago (1 children)

It's not a move, let alone a provocative one, it's a discussion.
Germany is very much cooperating and talking with other NATO members, including those at the eastern borders.
Germany is an independent country and does not need some sort of "NATO permit" to do things if they choose to do so.

[+] Rapidcreek -6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

It's provocative because ordinance launched from a German or NATO base would result in a Russian engagement which in turn result in a NATO engagement.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

If you think launching defensive measures for an ally is provocative, then how do you view & call launching offensive measures through imperialistic ambitions within a peaceful independent country? If Russia wants to avoid a conflict with NATO, maybe they should just avoid their illegal aggression and retreat back to within their own borders.

[–] Rapidcreek -2 points 7 months ago (3 children)

It's not a this or that proposition. Russia is very much aware how to bring NATO into the conflict, yet they don't. If NATO wanted to start a war with Russia, this is one way to do it. But, be careful what you wish for. Unintended consequences.

[–] meleethecat 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Russia started the war when they invaded Ukraine. They are also the only ones who can end it, and that is by leaving Ukraine. Russia is the only aggressive party here; everyone one else is defending themselves from Russia. Any implication that anyone other than Russia has started or is starting a war here is completely false.

[–] Rapidcreek 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Well sure, but they started it with Ukraine not NATO.

[–] meleethecat 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

No, they started a war with Ukraine and her allies.

[–] Rapidcreek 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

No, if it was Ukraines allies the US would be under attack since Ukraine supported the US in Iraq.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

And here comes the Ruscists weekly nuclear threat. Yawn.

[–] Rapidcreek 0 points 7 months ago

NATO would respond to that. If nothing else, the 82nd Airborn would drop in on a humanitarian mission. If they pop a nuke on NATO soil, the 20 minute clock starts. They'd have to be pretty stupid.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Thats literally what I wish for. The entire reasons The Greens are about this is because they know appeasement never works with bullies.

Bringing NATO in would end the war

It might see the end of Russia and if thats what Russia wants they can launch a nuc but I suspect Vald wants to enjoy his billions and his mansion.

[–] Rapidcreek 0 points 7 months ago

Well yes, NATO could end the war, but it would be the end of NATO to interfere with non NATO countries. That's why NATO has to be consulted. Geopolitical blowback could involve such things as China invading Taiwan or North Korea invading South Korea. It's more than the Germans can decide on their own. Which is the point I made to begin with. Now if Germany wants to march their troops into Ukraine to help them, that's fine. They can start their own war with Russia. But don't expect NATO to invoke Article 5.