this post was submitted on 14 Jun 2023
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The current default "Homepage" value is "All". That makes sense for users with zero subscribed magazines, so they see something.

But for users with one or more subscribed magazines, the default value for "Homepage" needs to be "Subscriptions".

That's partially just because subscriptions mean little if the default frontpage ignores them. But there's a more important reason than that.

The current situation is that posts in m/Conservative are heavily downvoted, and barely upvoted. (Whatever your politics may be, consider if this was happening to you.) As more ex-redditors join, this problem is likely to worsen.

Eventually moderators need better controls, to say things like "Only members can vote", etc.

But for now, a very easy fix is to change the default value of "Homepage" to be "Subscriptions". Of course, "All" should still be a selectable option for those who prefer it.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It’s really not brigading by definition. Brigading is a conscious and coordinated effort by many people to target a post or community. There is nothing conscious or coordinated about random people randomly seeing a post and downvoting it.

Brigading is not the right term. Unpopular is.

  • This is likely unavoidable because the majority of users of sites like this are not conservative. They trend toward the younger demographics. Millennials overall in the U.S. are 60% left-leaning. Gen Z are almost 70% left-leaning. What you're noticing may only become more pronounced after kbin re-federates. The fediverse is far more international then Reddit ever was and international and non-English posts are not filtered out by region like on Reddit. Conservative US politics are generally farther right than most right-leaning parties in the developed world. So you may be downvoted by international users as well that actually intentionally view magazines or posts with the conservative tag.

Really the only way to avoid this is to create your own instance and de-federate. This is precisely why the far-right social media platforms (like Truth Social) have had to isolate themselves. They’re simply a significant minority on the internet.

[–] deviant 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I was tired of seeing US politics on reddit, the r/conservative sub was one of the most brain-dead subs

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

We may disagree on politics, but you underscore my point. Minority viewpoints should not be fed to everyone by default. If you're a Leftist browsing your kbin homepage, and you see some conservative message you dislike, of course you're going to downvote it. The question is why's that showing up on your homepage by default.

[–] deviant 2 points 1 year ago

Yup, technically I would stay away from any western politics (especially American) since I live on the other side of the globe but here we are

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You're the third person to point out that it's technically not brigading. I think that's splitting hairs, because it's happening by design, but I hear you. I don't know the right present participle, but it seems like a moot point.

To everything you wrote after that, I wholly agree. I don't think this really is about politics, though, so much as it's about unpopular perspectives held by minority groups. IMHO the platform should encourage a diversity of thought.

Yes, I could create a defederated instance, or I could just go hang out on Gab or TruthSocial. I was hoping I'd find a more well-rounded community here, like I had on reddit. It's worth noting that reddit is strongly left-leaning, but has a bunch of conservative communities that thrive due to its configuration. But again, this isn't just about politics — it's about minority groups.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don’t think you’re being entirely unreasonable, I’m just not sure it’s possible.

It’s not happening by design, that would imply intent or bias on what the site shows on all. It’s happening naturally, all literary shows everything to everybody. Claiming it’s by design is like saying it’s by design when your entire office votes “no” to you banging on drums during the workday. It might be they just don’t like that idea.

Remember that the situation, the configuration you’re referring to, only existed on Reddit because those subs banned people left and right, and people blocked them. In other words, they were and are isolated. r/conservative would ban people for any dissenting comment, and conservative subs got delisted from r/all for a variety of reasons by the Reddit admins.

The only way to achieve what you’re describing would be to do the Reddit thing and pre-select magazines for the “all” tab, rather then them truly being all. Even if subs were the main page, people will still flip over to all regularly, just like they flip over to new.

You may just have to be content knowing that people that subscribe to /m/conservative go there intentionally despite the posts falling down on the all tab. Maybe there will be more people here that agree with you and the situation will change.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

when your entire office votes “no” to you banging on drums during the workday

Heh

On reddit, I never looked at r/all, and I don't know how many people did, but it's something you only ever see if you seek it out.

My gripe here is just about the default "Homepage" value. Most people don't change defaults, and it would be more appropriate to default to "Subscriptions". That would mostly solve the problem.

Sure, a few people could still choose to go to m/all and see things from other communities. But how often does that happen? I don't think it's common enough to worry about.

You may just have to be content knowing that people that subscribe to /m/conservative go there intentionally despite the posts falling down on the all tab.

Sure, but this really isn't about that magazine specifically. It's about all minority groups with unpopular viewpoints.

I like your username, btw.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@10A Or people just don’t want to see it. It is not brigading. As I don’t want people putting photos of their masculine genitals in my eyes, I don’t want to read about conservatism in my /all or /sub. Do whatever you want on this site, but don’t complain when people disagree. That’s called opinion.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's my point, @pasci_lei. It's natural to downvote something you dislike. And the site's set up to show everyone everything by default. So any community breaking with the hivemind is naturally downvoted by users who are not members of that community.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The whole point of a voting system is to do exactly what your trying to stop. If you don’t want people to vote on your posts maybe you should find a platform that doesn’t use a voting system.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's impolite to vote unless you're a member of the community. And by "impolite", I mean it's extremely rude. Members of the community have free reign to vote as they see fit. The result is the community's content is weighted according to its own values.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

I think gimping and entire platform of discussion so you can build an echo chamber is foolish. I get you don’t want to interact with the rest of the platform because your content is unpopular but I’d rather promote free interaction than pander to unpopular communities.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

People downvote because they don't want to see or simply disagree with the content. It's not complicated, and it's not brigading.

But here is the beautiful thing about federated instances. Anyone can create a nen instance for themselves, or find an instance that is better suited to to the topic. Go and be free!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Brigading is a coordinated effort that starts in one or more external communities and is directed at a specific target. That's not what you're describing.

Perhaps it's the case that a Conservative community is just unpopular among users browsing /all? This isn't a strictly USA politics thing. You're getting international users seeing this content too.

Even with your proposed change - which I think I agree with, but not for the same reason - nothing is going to prevent users from browsing and potentially downvoting submissions.

If there is this much sensitivity to meaningless Web points (seriously, there are no karma totals here), then I think a better solution might be to find or start an instance run by people who share Conservative values and have that instance control the desired level of federation with other instances.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This level of control is generally handled at the instance level.

If you want to host a magazine and control interactions on it, host your own instance.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There should only be one instance IMHO. And it should be able to support widely diverse communities.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean, not to be rude, but if you just want a single instance with many communities, you're describing Reddit.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Correct. Many of us who left reddit for kbin are fed up with reddit's governance and policies, not its platform architecture. Kbin seems to have been chosen as the world's probable reddit replacement, so here we are.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Fair enough, honestly.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

kbin is part of the Fediverse. It is one instance of many.

I draw your attention to the sidebar:

Create your own instance

Clone repo and develop fediverse

Several communities who have more difficult interactions with others have already followed this route.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Encouraging fracturing into factions does no good for anyone. The internet needs a frontpage, and for years that was reddit. Now it seems to be kbin, maybe. Under the hood it may be a distributed system, but in practice normal people want a single website where a wide diversity of topics and opinions is embraced and protected.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

The internet needs a frontpage

Does it though? The Fediverse feels a lot different to Reddit, which many here are taking as a positive. As others have mentioned, if you want a conservative safe space then go make one.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Maybe, but it won't be kbin, or other Fediverse sites.

It's a common enough opinion to want one site to handle everything, but that's not how this is set up.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Honestly I think it is. Much as the underlying architecture expects federation, each instance competes in a market of commoditized goods, which leads to coalescence. So if the fediverse thrives at all, it will be with one giant instance. Perhaps there'll always be a few other tiny instances for nerds (I use the word lovingly) who value that sort of thing, but normal people don't understand the concept of an "instance", and just want to show up at a .com to feast on data.

At any rate, even if you're right about federation, any social media service should seek to accommodate a wide diversity of ideas, opinions, and perspectives.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

instance competes in a market of commoditized goods, which leads to coalescence.

Any user on one instance can interact freely with users and content on another instance as if they were on that instance, unless there are specific restrictions put in place, or one of the two instances has blocked the other. This is rare and often to prevent brigading, as your main post complained of.

So, not really. Normal people understand the concept of email. I don't agree with the "It's too complicated" suggestion. It's been presented confusingly in this mad rush, sure.

At any rate, even if you're right about federation, any social media service should seek to accommodate a wide diversity of ideas, opinions, and perspectives.

I think that's entirely up to each instance. Not every instance has to be about everything or for everyone. Again, that's the point.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

With regard to federation, that's true, but consider the bigger picture. A major news outlet discusses the up-and-coming website kbin, and a hundred million people show up to create an account. A popular search engine returns search results linking to kbin, and nobody says "I could click on that, but I have an account at some other instance, so I'll just manually edit the URL." The bigger picture is that the world wants a single instance.

With regard to the diversity of of ideas, opinions, and perspectives being up to each instance, I suppose I agree with you in principle, though I would find it deeply disappointing if any platform intentionally wanted to create a hivemind and actively silence dissenting voices. But if that's where I am, then I suppose I'll have to leave.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A popular search engine returns search results linking to kbin, and nobody says "I could click on that, but I have an account at some other instance, so I'll just manually edit the URL." The bigger picture is that the world wants a single instance.

I think this is a valid issue and I think it's something that deserves some attention if it isn't on the mind of developers already.

From a generic developer perspective I see no reason why it would be impossible or even that difficult to improve the roaming experience.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thank you. But judging from the number of downvotes I've received here, I'm pretty sure the community prefers to stick its fingers in its ears.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Eeeh...

It seems to me like people have quickly identified the group you are attempting to get started (Or simply looked to see that you were), and it's a group that is almost always involved in contention and drama at best, and actively causes problems in the community otherwise.

It's the first thing I did, anyway. And I downvoted the OP, because it was clearly presenting the most optimistic version of the situation not the one that usually follows - and I don't want to deal with it here. You still seem pretty.. I duno. "Willfully ignorant" of the context around a lot of communities and media that identify as conservative. It's baggage that really can't be ignored, even if you should be allowed the opportunity to move past it occasionally - ignoring it seems disingenuous.

I've been ignoring that and attempting to focus on other things you've mentioned, eg the above scenario with search results and how federation works. Because regardless of my feelings about other things, we could still have a productive conversation about other issues.

I would not enjoy holding a "reasonable" conservative opinion (subjective, I'm not saying that as an insult) and be faced with the challenge of trying to establish a community for it on an instance like this or many others with a heavily progressive lean.

Which really does lead me to saying that starting your own instance really is in your best interest. If your instance behaves well, other instances won't blacklist it, and it will be standing on its own feet and won't have to deal with admins that would likely be personally difficult to deal due to that context.

It could even become a force for positive conservatives. That would be a good outcome for everyone - I would like to see divides healed.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Thank you for doing your best to look past our political differences. In retrospect, I wish I hadn't named the magazine, because I believe it applies to all minority groups with unpopular perspectives. And if I'd phrased it that way to begin with, I suspect many on the Left would be more receptive.

To your point that conservative groups have been problematic in your experience, I'd wager that perspective is wholly rooted in your personal politics. No disrespect intended. FWIW, on behalf of conservatives everywhere, I'm sorry for whatever problems you've encountered in the past. (And I hope you're not confusing "conservative" with other groups that are decidedly not conservative.)

With regard to starting a new instance, I hear you, and you're not the only one to suggest it. It seems like it would be a massive undertaking for little payoff, so I won't be the one to do it. I believe kbin should embrace a wide variety of minority groups, without inviting the whole world to vote on their content. If it wouldn't have conservative users, then it would likely block a conservative instance, and then we'd be left with a subpar version of Gab. I'm not looking to create yet another filter-bubble. I'm looking for a wider community that on principle accepts a wide diversity of thought.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They don't really need to understand the concepts of an instance within the federation system because ultimately you join whatever instance you want and search and then you can subscribe to anything you want it doesn't matter whether it's a one entire instance or one tiny instance in the federation.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

There are already many observable instances (pardon the pun) of confusion, even among us early adopters. Time will tell if you're right or if I am.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

I think people are just seeing the posts and downvoting because they dislike it. A lot of the early magazines here that existed when I first joined catered toward people that conservatives shun at best and actively discriminate against at worst. I think those people don’t feel good about it so you see downvotes. I’m sure that given enough time you can show them that your brand of conservatism doesn’t mean shunning them with discriminatory and hateful social conservatism.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

It’s not precisely brigading since it’s not coordinated, but it is confusing. I generally don’t go into subreddits/magazines I disagree with and just downvote everything. Maybe another solution here is to allow magazines to not be included in all?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

You can change your default homepage in settings.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

This is an ignorant and entitled take. You pass right wing ideology as deserving of special treatment and you indignantly pass conservatism as a minority voice needing to be heard. The federated community doesn't have algorithmic preferential treatment nor does it need to imitate Reddit's worst qualities because your ideology in unpopular. It's a community's responsibility to make itself appealing to the masses if it wants acceptance. You want a place for right wing discourse on a platform dominated by capital L Leftists. I personally would hate to see a fascist gateway community form on such a small platform like this. While you have the freedom to think and speak, you don't have the right to preferential treatment or your voice to be heard or liked.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm so sorry I came across that way. You make me sound awful. I'm not asking for special treatment whatsoever. I just think the default setting for Homepage should be Subscriptions. I think that would improve the site's overall quality for anyone who accepts default settings.

Edit: Lest anyone think this is just about politics, consider the following magazines that were just created:

  • m/UniversalPictures
  • m/KatyPerry
  • m/UniversalStudios
  • m/DreamWorks
  • m/Pixar

Whatever kbin was before, it won't be for long.

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