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„If companies were to do the right thing, they would lose the most valuable customers on earth, preteen kids” (english.elpais.com)

submitted 7 months ago by boem to c/technology

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

The shell used on most Linux is bash, a GNU project. Not a part of Research Unix. ZSH is newer than both Unix and BASH and is also not a part of Unix.

They still can spend a few hours on something useful for life. I know hundreds of little things like this from various areas even less useful specifically for me. While this is useful for everyone, as we can see every day from normies not knowing how anything in computing works and getting scammed.

None of this is going to stop someone getting scammed. You can have plenty of technical knowledge and still get scammed. I got scammed trying to sell a laptop for example. Teaching them how paypal works and to avoid using the friends and family option is much better for this purpose.

This is about upbringing and introducing people to things they can't avoid. Not about making them interested (but I'm almost confident that actually it will make a kid interested).

You very much can avoid using a Unix-like shell. Your average Windows user has never used one, and neither do most macOS people even though it's included with macOS. Likewise most people will never have to setup a web server.

If you want to give people practical skills start with adblockers and how to reinstall Windows, macOS, and Linux Mint if it goes wrong. If you want to teach them command line skills, maybe start with CMD and PowerShell, since they are more likely to see those in real life than Solaris or FreeBSD. Heck your average person probably needs a Virtual Machine or an emulator more than a web server. Being able to pirate and play old Nintendo games or Play Station 1/2 is pretty cool. So is running Windows stuff on mac or Linux. Could save them buying another PC for that one software program. Likewise learning to work on desktop and laptop PCs can save them buying a new one every few years. Especially useful for PC gamers.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

And GNU utilities were obviously used a lot on Unices and when Linux didn't yet exist. Also bash is more or less similar to Korn shell, which was used earlier than you may think. And also zsh, despite people perceiving it as very modern, is older than you may think.

Anyway, if a program written for Unix works on a Unix clone, it doesn't cease being a Unix program. POSIX was a standard for Unix.

I don't get what are you arguing for. Especially since I meant bourne shell scripts, not bash scripts.

You very much can avoid using a Unix shell. Your average Windows user has never used one, and neither do most macOS people even though it’s included with macOS. Likewise most people will never have to setup a web server.

I've said once that I want to give a taste of something. I was more general with things one can't avoid, as in "one can't avoid computers and the Internet". And this was pretty clear from the context, either you are playing dumb or you want to defeat someone in an argument, in the latter case I don't care because I see you are not doing that.

A taste of real things I'd want to give to help them connect their inner abstract idea of how the world works with actual material things. They will have that idea, I absolutely trust every person to develop that on their own without help. Without that they might not believe themselves when they should.

None of this is going to stop someone getting scammed. You can have plenty of technical knowledge and still get scammed. I got scammed trying to sell a laptop for example. Teaching them how paypal works and to avoid using the friends and family option is much better for this purpose.

See previous.

If you want to give people practical skills start with adblockers and how to reinstall Windows, macOS, and Linux Mint if it goes wrong.

I don't want them to hate computing. This will lead to that exactly. Especially PowerShell.

Anyway, see that same paragraph.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Why would learning how to fix a PC make you hate computing? If anything it makes you more confident in your ability to fix things if and when you break them. Likewise I don't get what's wrong with learning about Virtual Machines and emulators. PowerShell can't be that bad lol.

What it sounds like to me is you teaching your kids to think computing with Linux/FreeBSD is hard, and to hate using it. You're also teaching them to hate you for putting unnecessary barriers in front of them doing normal things like using a smartphone. Having a smartphone is necessary for modern life, as it does everything from communicating with family, finding out information, banking and booking appointments, ordering a taxi or takeout. Gatekeeping that behind arbitrary things like learning shell and setting up a web server is fucking dumb.

A taste of real things I'd want to give to help them connect their inner abstract idea of how the world works with actual material things. They will have that idea, I absolutely trust every person to develop that on their own without help. Without that they might not believe themselves when they should.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean or how it's related to the things you are asking them to do.

I've said once that I want to give a taste of something. I was more general with things one can't avoid, as in "one can't avoid computers and the Internet". And this was pretty clear from the context, either you are playing dumb or you want to defeat someone in an argument, in the latter case I don't care because I see you are not doing that.

Not it wasn't clear at all, especially given the other nuts things you have said. You're also not winning this argument, look at who's getting downvotes here.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

You’re also not winning this argument, look at who’s getting downvotes here.

Downvotes don't have anything to do with winning\losing.

I think it was pretty clear just like other things I've said, and I'm too lazy to repeat or rephrase.

So you may go on and think you've "won" or something, but you didn't understand a single thing of what I said in the first place.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Looking at the votes suggests no one else agrees with you or that no one understands you. You started this conversation coming out swinging. It's on you to explain your position, not on me or anyone else to read your mind. Winning an argument means either convincing the person your arguing with, or better yet convincing everyone else. You have done neither.

No one apart from you thinks making kids do an exam on installing web servers and writing shell scripts before being able to use basic technology they will need for the rest of their lives is a good idea. A smartphone is a basic and essential tool in the modern world and there isn't a real workable alternative to the iOS and Android duopoly.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago

No, actually nothing is on me. You don't get it - ok, keep walking.