this post was submitted on 25 Apr 2024
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Out of the loop

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What's the deal with Isreal vs. Palestine side taking in the West? (self.outoftheloop)
submitted 7 months ago by ThePerfectLink to c/outoftheloop
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I feel like I've been kind of in the loop for most of the headlines regarding this confrontation. Yet somehow I can't find it within myself to actually care about either side. It seems like both are lead by genocidal parties, hell bent on indoctrinating their populace into hating the other side. Yet at the same time people are able to discern which state is the good one. And some going so far as to believe that one state might even be right over the other.

So far from what I've read and heard, it seems that overall Isreal is just more successful militarily and is encroaching on Palestinian land, and is exhibiting control over some of it. Is that the reason why one might support Palestine? Is it the fact that Isreal has more direct power in the region and thus can easily execute its will a problematic issue for some? From what I can see, both sides have caused massive civilian casualties and neither side wants a two state solution, so neither of those reasons can be a contributing factor to side picking, right? That being said, I can't find a reason for supporting Isreal, so does Palestine win out by default? But what of the people that support Isreal, do they do that purely because they're an American ally? Is any of this side taking have anything to do with the insertion of Jews into the region? What is expected to be done outside of a two state solution or genocide by those taking sides?

I have a lot of questions, and I obviously don't expect all of them to be answered in a single post. So maybe focusing on the elements you're highly informed on would be helpful and then I can kind of piece together the details. Thank you in advance!

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

That sounds... weird. And ignores a lot of history behind why they are fighting. Do you have any sources for your claims or is that just your personal opinion?

[–] [email protected] -2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Mostly just a personal explanation for why anyone cares. There a a lot of wars going on, many of them with more casualties. But for some reason this gets all the discourse.

Also I think the history is mostly irrelevant, in the sense that like .01% of people talking about it actually know it. In terms of why they are fighting it is somewhat relevant, but we should go too far back for justifications, only explanations. And for a solution, both sides need to look at the present and ignore history.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Okay, that explains why you're so far off the mark on some points. Framing progressives as "anti West" or even "anti White" is honestly insulting and sounds a lot like far right propaganda. Most left / progressive people I know that support Palestine do so because of a couple of reasons:

  • Killing civilians is bad. While both sides have been guilty of that over the last few decades, Israel is currently taking it to a whole new level.
  • Palestine has arguably the better claim to the region. Arabs have lived there from the 7th to the mid 20th century. On the other hand, Israel's claim amounts to "It was ours in ancient times" and "The British said so during WW2"
  • Israeli aggression comes from the government while Palestinian aggression comes mostly from Hamas, an extremist group who does not officially represent the country as a whole (yes, I know there are some members of Hamas in the government but their pseudo-military actions don't seem to be officially sanctioned to the point where the president has urged them to adhere to the 1967 ceasefire since at least 2006)

I would argue that almost nobody involved in the overall discussion actually supports Hamas' plan of eradicating all Jews from the area, not even the far right. Most people would be fine with a peaceful solution, be it two states or one. But because of the way Israel was founded (by a colonial power giving land that has belonged to Arabs for 1300 years to a bunch of refugees with no personal connection to the place), reaching a peaceful solution extremely hard if not impossible.

In conclusion: everybody sucks but at least right now, Israel sucks more.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago

Oh and as for why people talk about this and not as much about many other wars:

  • This is the continuation of a conflict that has been in western news for decades and has been flaring up every now and then.
  • Israel and Palestine are geographically and in parts culturally close to Europe which makes them seem a lot more relevant to Europeans than what happens on the other side of the world.
  • Israel is directly targeting civilians which is by all definitions a war crime
  • Israel has traditionally been allied with the West but has always been controversial for the various reasons listed in all the other posts in this thread
  • This is yet another conflict in an already unstable region (Syrian civil war since 2011, the Arab Spring in general, Iraq still hasn't fully recovered from its war between 2003 and 2011, ...)
  • Israel has access to nuclear warheads, Iran may have some as well and is just one bad day away from fully engaging in the conflict on the Palestinian side
  • The overall situation is very complex which means there is a lot to talk and argue about.
  • This is stuff happening right now. People have been talking just as much about Ukraine and Syria and would have been talking more about many other conflicts if social media had been more present when they broke out.