Comradeship // Freechat

There's a person in my life named Bill. Bill is a person whose always been around, but we never really 'connected'. Which is a shame because I always wanted to get closer with Bill. However it never really manifested, mostly because of different outlooks, and different interests.

I started working as a teenager full time, working back breaking demeaning minimum wage jobs for years. Having zero support, I had to drop out of college to survive. Bill was unemployed and a full time student, getting full support from his parents. Bill would always look down on me for this, thinking I was too much of a stupid degenerate to actually succeed, that I somehow 'deserved' this depraved existence. Then something happened, he struggled in school, and out of necessity Bill became employed for the first time in his life in his mid twenties. Working the same crap jobs he once looked down on. It was the first time I had actually been able to level with Bill, he finally understood the struggles I had. Even better: he started diving into Marxist theory. I was overjoyed, finally I can have something to relate with Bill about! We spent a lot of time going over this with each other. Bouncing ideas, bonding over political theory, sharing all of our recent books/discoveries. He knew I spent my whole life studying history and politics, so he would ask me a lot in regards to this. Wow, I was just overjoyed, almost too good to be true!

Then one day Bill quits his job after a short time, with full financial support, and heads back to school. All was fine at first, then during our political discussions he starts to suggest 'The Conquest of Bread' and was pretty adamant about me reading it. Uh oh, I started to smell trouble. (Now for full disclosure: I absolutely loathe anarchism. I've got nothing but disdain for anarchism and any libertarian adjacent ideologies. In my view they're politically and historically illiterate.) I wanted to maintain a good relationship with Bill, so I let him down easy. Told him I'm not really interested, that maybe one day I'll get around to it, I've got a lot more to learn about ML theory and history first. As time goes on he starts bringing up anarchism more and more. He visited local anarchist communes, began dating an anarchist, and even became a member of the local punk rock scene. I knew being coy about this wasn't going to last forever, eventually it was all going to come to a head.

Finally, after he suggested anarchism to me once again, I flat out ask him politely. "What would you define yourself as?" He responds in a round about way with "an anarcho-communist". I've got respect for Bill, I think he's a smart guy, so out of genuine curiosity and putting aside my own biases I ask him. "What do you like about anarchism, why do you define yourself as an anarchist?" He responded by saying, "History has proven that power is immoral and corrupt. Stalin purposefully created the famine, he ate all of the grain. Mao killed all of the sparrows. Yadayadayada. This is why there should be no hierarchies and the state is an evil institution that must be abolished." This response flusters me, I'm taken back by it. I try to respond by picking apart the historical illiteracy of his argument, particularly on Stalin. Trying to explain how there's no credible research, even by openly anti-communist researchers, to prove that the 1932 famine was 'man made'. How history matters, it's more nuanced than what you were taught in grade school, how we need to actually research things before openly spreading ignorance. No research no right to speak, ect. I tried to explain the history of anarchist projects, how they don't work in practice, how they resort to 'authoritarianist' methods as well. This all fell on deaf ears. Big brained Bill just knows it all I guess! Undeterred Bill plants a firm seat on his high horse, stating how he's a 'moralist' at the end of the day. How "ML's haven't accomplished anything in history, the USSR failed, how there's no local ML groups here in Whitey-ville suburbia, it's the anarchists doing all of the work!!" I try to explain why we're the most relevant leftist political force in history, and how that framing is silly, to no avail. He proceeds to talk about how the "authoritarian Stalin personally purged the greatest revolutionaries in history, Trotsky and Makhno!" I briefly explained why that framing around Trotsky was wrong, and having no idea who Makhno was at the time, asked about him. Bill explains how Makhno was 'his hero' he was this "great revolutionary spreading freedom across the land, the only true communist who ever existed, adored by all, and was struck down by the authoritarian Stalin!"

Hoo boy. 'What is happening? What in the world happened to Bill?' I thought to myself. Like a masochist I wanted to finish my questioning, "What about communism do you like?", I foolishly ask. Bill perks up and says "I love the Communist Manifesto, especially the part where Marx advocates for a stateless, classless, moneyless society. Truly at the end of the day Marx had anarchist values." "Siiiiiiiiigh, no Marx was not an anarchist, he also wrote a lot more than just that", I said. Bill proceeded to then mock my intelligence, claim I didn't know anything about marx, politics, or history, apparently I'm nothing more than an arm chair pseudo-intellectual. While at the same time mocking Marx saying, "Marx is too intellectual in his writing, also him advocating for socialism is wrong and bad. At the end of the day I'm a Marxist though. Actually I'm above defining myself to one ideology. I also support Lenin, Trotsky, Mao, and Fred Hampton because they too advocate for anarchism." Using all my willpower and every fiber of my being to not slap Bill across the face for the blatent disrespect, or truly dunk on Bill for all of the wrong things that were said, I decided to end the conversation. Swallowing my pride, I told Bill that we don't see eye to eye. Nonetheless I support pragmatism, that I would be happy to help out locally at the end of the day despite our differences. Something tells me he's not going to take me up on that offer though lol.

So lemmygrad, how should I proceed? Do I just not bring up politics around Bill anymore? Do I keep trying to educate? Do I give into the immortal transcendent ideology of Bill-ism? Where in the world would Bill be possibly be getting this 'information' from? Any advice would be helpful. Also any information regarding Makhno, anarchism, Trotsky, and Stalin would be great as well. I've read a lot of dessaline's links, Marx/Engels/Stalin/Hampton's critiques on Anarchism, Grover Furrs work. Any additional information would be appreciated.

TLDR: My buddy Bill went down the old Marxist to marxist-anarcho-makhno-trot-CIA-jibberish pipeline. Please help.

Edit: Just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions, that falls on me, and I apologize for that.

1. I'm fine with Bill despite all of the crap that was said. It's fine, me and Bill will continue to interact despite this. I have no intentions of cutting him off. If that were the case I wouldn't even bother making this post, I would just do it.

2. This isn't about 'converting' or convincing Bill of ML ideology. I could care less whether Bill is a ML at the end of the day or not. It was just kind of cool having something to bond over for a brief time, and was disappointing the way it turned out. The point of the post was to vent, to share a weird experience I had with fellow ML's, and to maybe seek advice on how to handle it. You all gave me excellent responses and good advice. I'm very appreciative of that.

3. Reading it back I think what I said in the post did come off as rather hostile. It’s mostly a venting post that I typed up in an hour and expected maybe two people to read. My behavior in the conversation was a lot more patient and respectful than what can be summarized accurately over the internet. It’s hard to give that kind of nuance over text, but I assure you all I wasn’t being a jerk irl.

4. Here’s a little background on me, I take history and politics very seriously. This isn’t a game to me. I’ve studied it constantly my whole life. From school, to spending personal time reading/watching new info, ect. Even if it’s from a perspective I don’t agree on (including anarchists). I listen, I absorb it, I don’t just dismiss people because they aren’t ML. I’ve also practiced what I preach. It hasn’t been purely theoretical, I’ve put in work on the ground, done a ton of community work for a variety of organizations. That being said, I don’t pretend to be an authority on anything, I’ll be the first to admit when I’m wrong. I’m wrong all the damn time, and that’s okay! I have a lot more to learn, I’ll be learning and adjusting my positions until the day I die.

If anyone has any more questions I'd be happy to clarify.