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I’m gonna say it. Israel is no better than the Nazis, and I wholeheartedly believe the nation should be dissolved and the people moved off of the land they stole from the Palestinians. These people do not act with humanity, and I don’t have any sympathy for whatever happens to them in the future.
I think the only way this can end is similar to South Africa. International pressure needs to end the current governance of Israel as an apartheid state and a new state with equal rights for all Palestinians, including all the refugees, and Israeli citizens needs to be created in its place.
True. But i would add the extra detail that all the land stolen from Palestinians by Israel should be returned.
In South Africa that wasn't done. We had land and a house that my grandfather built up by himself in what is now one the most expensive suburbs in Cape Town. That land was stolen from us and never returned.
And it hurts so much everytime we have to go past there because there are rich white folks living there now. And we know we'll never be able to afford that land now no matter how hard we work. Now we struggle to even leave a home for our children to inherit.
I don't want that happening to the Palestinians again.
I completely agree. Palestinians need reparations for their land and valuables stolen in the ethnic cleansing campaign and the generations of trauma they have been subjected to since. If they can't or don't want their old land/home, they need additional reparations for their new one (for example if they want to live in a different area)
That's... Not what happened. Both Israel and Palestine have long historical precedence, and tumultuous ownership claims. They were ultimately created by Britain post-WW2, who then bowed out after a year with very little planning. Don't add your country's baggage to an already complex reality. It's not true, and it's not going to help you understand what's going on over there.
The settlers (aka colonolialist thieves and murderers) are literally killing, maiming, torturing Palestinians on their own land in the West Bank. Driving them out of their own houses, lands and farms. The Israeli army stands by and watches this. If any Palestinian tries to fight back against the settlers in the process of stealing their land they are maimed and/or murdered. And this is only in the West Bank where land theft and murder by the Israelis is still happening to this day. It doesn't include any of the other clear land theft that had taken place in historic Palestine by the Israelis.
Now tell me that is not similar to the Apartheid police force breaking into houses in your area and telling you to move or be murdered, because your property now belongs the Apartheid state that is going to parcel it out to the white Apartheid supporting citizens.
Finding similarities between the atrocities commited by the Apartheid South African government and the Apartheid Israeli government is not adding my country's baggage to a complex reality. A lot can be learnt by looking back at similar atrocities commited in the past and the repercussions of that, whay was learnt, etc.
Also an important point is that because of experiencing a similar repression of my people, parents, grandparents, and living through the tail end of that repression, i have empathy and some understanding of what the Palestinians are going through. I can't claim to know exactly how they're feeling but i do have some idea.
I have been campaigning in South Africa for Palestinian rights and self determination since i was a young teenager with my peers and my parents. I have been aware of the history, geopolitics and reality of the situation of the Palestinians since then. I have a pretty decent understanding of what is going on over there.
I misinterpreted your original post, but re-reading it now I agree. I was reacting to the common idea in this thread that Israel doesn't have any right to exist -- which is complicated, as all post-colonial history is. That wasn't what you were commenting on, though. Israel is definitely encroaching on Palestinian land and rights in Gaza and the West Bank, and are at least half of the force against real peaceful solutions. I fully agree that what's going on now should be classified a genocide, and as far as I know South Africa is the only country that has stated it.
It's amazing the damage wrought in the wake of colonialism. Both Palestine/Israel and South Africa have suffered tremendously from colonizers deciding they knew what (and who) was best.
It's no problem. Maybe i can also be more clear too in the future when replying.
It's true that the Israeli citizens and the Palestinian citizens will have to be involved in a common solution. It will be very bitter, especially for the Palestinians, but one has to move forward
I'm Israeli. I was born and raised here, in a city that never existed before pre-Israel pioneers established it. I also voted against the current shitshow of a government.
Where do you expect me to go exactly?
It didn’t exist before the Israelis showed up? Then what you’re saying is that your people established an illegal settlement on stolen lands. In that case, I would say that you should be forced to leave that land so that it can be used by the people it belongs to. You’re illegal squatters, you don’t have any right to that land.
Nope. The land was purchased from previous land owners. You can read about the city here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%27anana
Forcing the people of Israel to relocate would be a war crime in itself.
Forcing them off the land they’ve stolen is not a war crime any more than forcing Russia out of Crimea would be. The warcrime has already been committed, undoing that warcrime is justice.
I understand disliking the establishment of Israel at the expense of Palestinians and Palestinian land. As a state, they revolt me. But forced removal of Israelis would be Genocide by definition. War crimes by Israel don't justify commiting crimes against the Israeli populace.
No, they were not.
If we were only talking about the people who originally colonized the area you'd have a point. But we're not, so you're just talking about ethnic cleansing and collective punishment of a civilian population. If you think crimes against humanity are the way to resolve conflicts, you'd fit right in with the leadership of Hamas or Likud.
You're just as bad as they are.