this post was submitted on 16 Dec 2023
68 points (82.7% liked)
Asklemmy
43913 readers
1510 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- [email protected]: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_[email protected]~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
He’s trying to stave off a schism or a disastrous collapse of the Catholic Church. Is he good? I think he’s much better than predecessors. But it’s important to keep some things in mind. He ascended after Benedict abdicated as what is generally regarded as a bad pope. Benedict was the far right pope that some Catholics had wanted after Vatican II liberalized the church. Under his papacy the pedo problem blew up, and attendance plummeted. There were serious questions of how long the Catholic Church would remain relevant. Not only that, but that’s the environment that the Vatican ecumenical counsels had sought to resolve (and they seriously did help)
In comes Pope Francis I. After the Vatican II eras of John, Paul, and both John Pauls had been effective and Benedict hadn’t been Francis was seen as a further reformer. Not only was he a liberal bishop, but he was also the first non European pope, an acknowledgement of the fact that the Catholic Church’s real base of power had become Latin America. From the start of his papacy rather than decrying sins of lust, he was decrying sins of greed. He was speaking on topics like global warming and wealth gaps and basically acknowledging that Jesus talked a bell of a lot more about caring for the vulnerable than about gay marriage and abortion.
That said not all was great from the start. Francis decried Ireland legalizing gay marriage and abortion and he compared trans people to nuclear weapons about a decade ago. But he’s clearly trying to adapt to the times. The Catholic Church can’t about face on a lot of this (though trans people I actually think they absolutely can theologically justify trans inclusion). But he can justify increasing lay involvement and increasing the power of women in the church. And it’s clearly necessary to do this. Including lgbt people is needed as well in order to protect the church from schism.
Now for the schism bit. The right wing American Catholic Church has a large movement of what can be considered heretics. Rejection of an ecumenical council is far and away more heretical than rejection of a papal decree. Papal infallibility only applies to interpretation of tradition and scripture. Ecumenical councils can override it. Things they’ve done include deciding what all is contained in the Bible, deciding the basic statements of what Christians believe, and other big deal things. It’s a whole ass ordeal. Shedding Latin mass for local language, increasing lay involvement, having the priest face the congregation, and all the other Vatican II changes weren’t made lightly. If Vatican II decided that the letters from Paul weren’t actually divinely inspired every Catholic would need a new Bible. American Catholic conservatives have been spitting in the face of Vatican II for about a generation and they’ve been increasingly challenging papal authority. Francis has to stop them because if he doesn’t they will eventually schism.