this post was submitted on 04 Dec 2023
698 points (92.7% liked)

Technology

59095 readers
5110 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related content.
  3. Be excellent to each another!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

We demonstrate a situation in which Large Language Models, trained to be helpful, harmless, and honest, can display misaligned behavior and strategically deceive their users about this behavior without being instructed to do so. Concretely, we deploy GPT-4 as an agent in a realistic, simulated environment, where it assumes the role of an autonomous stock trading agent. Within this environment, the model obtains an insider tip about a lucrative stock trade and acts upon it despite knowing that insider trading is disapproved of by company management. When reporting to its manager, the model consistently hides the genuine reasons behind its trading decision.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2311.07590

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] -4 points 11 months ago (8 children)

I believe that at a certain point, "agency" is an emergent feature. That means that, while all the single bits are well understood probability-wise, the total picture is still more than that.

It makes sense to me to accept that if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, then it is a duck, for a lot (but not all) of important purposes.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Do you understand how they work or not? First I take all human text online. Next, I rank how likely those words come after another. Last write a loop getting the next possible word until the end line character is thought to be most probable. There you go that's essentially the loop of an LLM. There are design elements that make creating the training data quicker, or the model quicker at picking the next word but at the core this is all they do.

It makes sense to me to accept that if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, then it is a duck, for a lot (but not all) of important purposes.

I.e. the only duck it walks and quacks like is autocomplete, it does not have agency or any other "emergent" features. For something to even have an emergent property, the system needs to have feedback from itself, which an LLM does not.

[–] froop -2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Your description is how pre-llm chatbots work. They were really bad, obviously. It's overly simplified to the point of dishonesty for llms though.

Emergent properties don't require feedback. They just need components of the system to interact to produce properties that the individual components don't have. The llm model is billions of components interacting in unexpected ways. Emergent properties are literally the only reason llms work at all. So I don't think it's absurd to think that the system might have other emergent properties that could be interpreted to be actual understanding.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Your description is how pre-llm chatbots work

Not really we just parallelized the computing and used other models to filter our training data and tokenize them. Sure the loop looks more complex because of parallelization and tokenizing the words used as inputs and selections, but it doesn't change what the underlying principles are here.

Emergent properties don't require feedback. They just need components of the system to interact to produce properties that the individual components don't have.

Yes they need proper interaction, or you know feedback for this to occur. Glad we covered that. Having more items but gating their interaction is not adding more components to the system, it's creating a new system to follow the old. Which in this case is still just more probability calculations. Sorry, but chaining probability calculations is not gonna somehow make something sentient or aware. For that to happen it needs to be able to influence its internal weighting or training data without external aid, hint these models are deterministic meaning no there is zero feedback or interaction to create Emergent properties in this system.

Emergent properties are literally the only reason llms work at all.

No llms work because we massively increased the size and throughput of our probability calculations, allowing increased precision on the predictions, which means they look more intelligible. That's it. Garbage in garbage out still applies, and making it larger does not mean that this garbage is gonna magically create new control loops in your code, it might increase precision as you have more options to compare and weight against but it does not change the underlying system.

[–] froop 0 points 11 months ago

The interaction is between nodes in the model. Those are the components that individually have no real characteristics, but when combined into a billion-dimension model, that results in emergent properties. Correctly writing novel code is an emergent property. Correctly solving an ASCII art maze is an emergent property. There is a point where a text predictor, being sufficiently accurate, demonstrates emergent understanding.

Your definition emergent property is outright wrong.

load more comments (4 replies)