this post was submitted on 25 Nov 2023
19 points (80.6% liked)

Israel and Palestine Politics Discussion

319 readers
1 users here now

The sole purpose of this community is to discuss Israeli and Palestinian issues. It is not the place for hurling insults, rehashing grudges, or making up history. Any conversation that veers into the "if only your people had" realm will be deleted or locked right away. I started this community in the potentially fruitless hope that we may have a civil conversation about this issue.

Rules:

  1. References to historical events must include a reputable source. The definition of reputable is up to the mods. Keep that in mind.
  2. Articles from reputable sources only.
  3. No name-calling. That's what DMs are for. /s
  4. Keep it in English. If I don't understand the word, it gets removed. Obvious exceptions would be the use of proper names and references. For example, "wadi" when used to refer to a place is acceptable.
  5. Discussions that are heading into the probability of becoming a flame war will be locked.
  6. Repeat offenders will be forced to find another community.
  7. Anti-Zionism is ok. Anti-Semitism is not.
  8. Whataboutism is for toddlers. Try to grow up.
  9. Posting articles about current events is encouraged. Posting the same story from 20 different sources is not.
  10. Posting an article purely for the purpose of saying "Look what monsters they are" is discouraged unless it can generate an honest discussion. This is probably the most difficult rule to follow.
  11. No calling anyone a terrorist.
  12. No YouTube links. Some of us can read.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

150 Palestinian prisoners are being released as part of Israel and Hamas’s recent hostage deal. But thousands more remain behind bars.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

I do acknowledge that there are a number of slightly-different definitions of genocide, so here's the Merriam-Webster definition, which is how I use it: "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group." Further, it's not about the current slaughter in Gaza, it's about the manifest end-game of decades of Israeli policy and actions. That is, destruction of Palestine is the only possible outcome that would meet Israel's terms.

What are their terms? At the risk of oversimplifying it:

  1. No one-state solution; Palestinians cannot live in the territory of Israel. It has steadfastly refused the right-of-return for refugees, and passed a law in 2018 that created a Jewish ethno-state instead of a true democracy. This makes sense in realpolitik terms, since that would leaves Jews an ethnic minority in Israel. Obviously, a non-starter. So, no one-state solution.

  2. No two-state solution. That's obvious from when the government of Israel rejected the Arab Peace Initiative, on offer of peace within the 1967 borders. The rejection may have been ideological, as right-wing Israeli politicians talk about their vision of "Greater Israel" from the river to the sea, and sometimes including the Sinai peninsula. Or it could have been practical, again a non-starter in realpolitick terms, because it would've required evicting all the settlers who have stolen land from Palestine. Now, the land that potentially could be Palestine is so chopped up, and disjointed, it's not really viable. So, no two-state solution.

If the people of Palestine can't live there as citizens of Israel, and can't live there as citizens of Palestine, then there's a third option:

  1. A stateless solution, under which Palestinians live as stateless people under Israeli military rule, a.k.a. the old status quo. This hasn't worked out so well, as people have a tendency to fight back against oppression. So, the stateless solution isn't tenable, long-term.

Furthermore, settlers keep encroaching, keep taking more land, and in fact have used the conflict in Gaza to step up the campaign of terrorism and land theft against Palestinians in the West Bank. Not only is the Israeli government not stopping them, some of its members are floating trial balloons about nuking Gaza, and writing memos to each other (which have leaked) about forcing the people of Gaza into Egypt and seizing the land. These are examples of the sole remaining option:

  1. Palestinians can't live there at all. Expulsion would do, but since other Arab nations don't want to be destabilized by a refugee crisis, it certainly appears that Israel isn't going to reject the option of simply killing large numbers of people. Voilà, genocide! It's not that anybody in Israel intends to perpetrate genocide against Palestine, it's just the cold logic of historical forces that inexorably drive them to it. Those forces don't leave room for any good outcome should Palestinians surrender.

(And, indeed, the military detentions described in the article occur in the West Bank, which is not at war with Israel, so going along to get along isn't working.)