this post was submitted on 05 Nov 2023
1244 points (93.2% liked)
Leftism
2132 readers
17 users here now
Our goal is to be the one stop shop for leftism here at lemmy.world! We welcome anyone with beliefs ranging from SocDemocracy to Anarchism to post, discuss, and interact with our community. We are a democratic community, and as such, welcome metaposts that seek to amend the rules through consensus. Post articles, videos, questions, analysis and more. As long as it's leftist, it's welcome here!
Rules:
- Absolutely no fascism, right wing extremism, genocide denial, etc.
- Unconditional support of authoritarians will not be tolerated
- Good faith discussion about ideologies is encouraged, but no sectarianism
- No brocialism/sexism
- No ableism
- No TERFs/ anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric
- No racism
- No trolling
- No insults, dunking, or personal attacks
- No posting of misinformation, disinformation, or fake news
- Mods have final say
Posting Expectations:
- Comics/memes/shitposts/propaganda are only allowed on weekends
- Try to avoid liberalism unless discussing electoral politics. Even then, try to focus on tactical agreement towards leftist goals
- Only one meta post seeking consensus per person per day
- Posts about a particular ideology are ok, but remember the rules above
- Remember that there is no “right way” to implement leftist theory. This rule does not prevent academic criticism.
- Try to avoid extremely sensitive topics unless approaching them with appropriate care for intersectionality. Use your best judgement, and be prepared to provide respectable sources when having these discussions. Wikipedia is not an acceptable source in these cases.
- Post titles must be meaningful and relevant, except on weekends
Sister Communities:
[email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] Solarpunk memes [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected]
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Not really.
And not for UBI. I think we're on the same page, then.
Well this discussion was about something that won't happen today or tomorrow, so focusing on today seemed silly.
UBI would represent a great advancement for the working class.
It should be plain.
Also plain is that it will only be achieved through struggle.
Fighting makes a stronger contribution than analyzing details that are currently only hypothetical.
My whole point for the last 20 comments has been specific, detailed reasons why I think it's not an advancement for the working class. Is there any reason you won't address them? If it were plain, there should be answers to my criticisms.
So how often do you fight for things you think are harmful? Why should the Left be flocking to a plan like UBI, one that is often seen as a "centrist compromise" between welfare and laissez faire capitalism? In the US at least, we're already further to the Left than UBI in many ways, and the working class have better than UBI (even if there's miles to go to proper socialized welfare).
Your objections were against details that are narrow, undetermined, or hypothetical.
I declined to address your objections on their merits, because I find in them no merit.
The solution to a car not having any wheels is applying wheels, not lamenting that all cars are dysfunctional because none may ever have wheels.
The constructive response to any problem is addressing it at the time it occurs, not obsessing over it while also refusing to begin any action.
Workers who have little income gaining more income, or workers who have precarious income gaining secure income, is obviously not harmful, yet you seem determined to fixate on some particular scenario that makes you feel threatened.
Workers need income to survive. UBI helps ensure security for everyone.
So the majority are too stupid and unworthy to get explanations, and evidence/studies don't matter? I mean, these are not contrived or uneducated objections.
A car with only 1 wheel isn't going anywhere, and there's no UBI out there offering to give even 2 wheels. But I specifically named plans that come "all-4-wheels-included' and your response was to insult me as "narrow, undetermined, or hypothetical" with "no merit".
So you're saying we need to run blindly to the Right when the Left already has proven answers? Why? Capitalism is the problem. Cutting everyone a check in capitalism is still capitalism.
So pay them a living wage not to work (no-questions-asked unemployment) and let their stability leverage better wages. That'll actually work and cost less than what you're suggesting.
Your use of "obviously" is bad-faith. My whole argument is that blindly cutting a not-nearly-enough check for everyone is "obviously" quite harmful, just like Bush's tax cuts were.
I don't feel threatened. As upper-middle-class I personally do better under UBI than I would under any full-socialization of resources. I don't care because I have no problem with getting passed over for aid if it's going to those who really need it. I don't want a $1000 "Make Welfare Conservative Again" check.
Or we can just put wheels on that car and ensure that everyone can survive with or without income. Instead of feeding the alt-right machine.
I'd like to reiterate (not that you read my replies) that my whole point is that you're trying to fix a solved problem with an untested capitalist answer that, at best, is 1/2 as good as the solutions we already know will work and for 5x the price.
And it looks like you have no desire to let all of those on the Left who think UBI is the wrong tool know why we should reconsider. That's all I've been trying to do, give you that opportunity.
EDIT: Is there anyone ELSE reading this who would be willing to give a good reason why a SocDem or socialist should support UBI instead of just be confrontational? I used to love the idea of it, but I'm really sold on it being the wrong tool of late, and I have to be honest that Yang was a big part of my reasoning for feeling this way.
For purposes of resolving that UBI helps the working class, your objections are not germane.
Everyone having some income and especially adequate food is better than some having none.
It should be extremely uncomplicated.
I disagree.
That's like saying "everyone having a Ford F150 is better than some having none", but money is just bloody paper. Nobody is eating a dollar bill. So no. Everyone having some income is NOT better than some having no income but everyone having a home, food, and healthcare. It IS an either/or choice according to every serious UBI advocate. SHOW me a plan with a non-trivial UBI that also expands welfare, and then we'll talk.
Then demonstrate it with uncomplicated facts instead of treating my objections as if only a moron would make them. If you treat the Left like morons, you'll never get further than Lemmy comments.
After all this time of you showing non-stop arrogance towards my views, I've continued to treat you with respect and try to coax the actual logical basis of what you're trying to push for. At what point do I just give up and conclude that I was right, that you don't actually know much about UBI at all?
No. Your objection is ridiculous. The comparison is absurd.
You are either deliberately obstructing reason and consensus, or too confused to follow either.
So despite the fact I would love to be convinced that UBI would work, you'd rather just keep insulting me. Have a great day.
In almost 30 comments now, you haven't given ONE GOOD REASON why anyone with a brain should consider UBI. I've begged you for them while you insulted me and my intelligence. I've gone past giving you the benefit of the doubt and simply made myself look the fool giving you chance upon chance.
I guess I'm just "too confused to follow" because being insulted didn't change my mind :-/
The way it "works" is by giving money to those who otherwise would have none or too liitle.
Stop being an obscurant.
They gave you dozens, your capacity for cognizance might not be so derelict if you had adequate education, but you lack that for the same reason you choose to lack an understanding of UBI; you've never been privy to the resources to allow you to dissuade your ignorance, and you've mistakenly assumed your ignorance is as valuable as someone else's knowledge.
Wheels on a car, the economy is fiction, and anyone who hates UBI is against progress. Those reasons? If those are the only reasons for UBI, the Yang centrists really got nothing for us.
You're right. Librul Elite College screwed with my brain. I just can't see "cars need wheels" as a solid argument, and "fuck you" as reasonable counters for my genuine critiques.
So do bloody tell. I've been openly asking people to convince me that UBI is worth considering, and they keep just telling me I'm a fucking moron. It's like walking up to the crazy street preacher and saying "I really do want to learn about your religion" and all they do is spit at you and call you a devil.
College, economics classes, law class (only one of those, admittedly). I read Yang's UBI plan in its entirety, as well as both the pro-arguments and the con-arguments. I was ALL FUCKING IN at first. Then I had a question. And when I asked it, everyone acted like this guy, like I was some stupid moron (and worse to Yang UBI-fans, a Socialist) who was just trying to tank their goal. So what else should I look into? I've spent (feels like wasted at this point) hundreds of hours on UBI. What more do you need before I can kiss your feet?
Is this how you feel about all Leftists, or just the ones who won't throw away socialism for capitalism?