This is the second megathread for discussion regarding the crisis.
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You’re right, logic didn’t start the current conflict. The British did when they disarmed Palestinians and armed and trained Zionist paramilitaries. This enabled the Zionists to forcibly evict hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes in a brutal ethnic cleansing campaign. The pace at which Palestinians are being displaced has slowed but it has never stopped. While Palestinian resistance movements have received outside support it pales in comparison to the military support Israel receives from the US and other western countries. This conflict is unfortunately very one sided.
If you think Arabs and Jews fighting started with the British, you'd be a thousand years late to the party.
Changing the balance of the power did not start the conflict.
Okay so you’re just going to ignore the hundreds of years of relative peace in the region under Ottoman rule immediately preceding WWI?
So peaceful.... Multiple massacres and entire towns getting sacked for being Jewish sure doesn't sound like peaceful to me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire#Antisemitism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Yishuv
The Ottomans lost in WWI, and the empire got split up. It's not surprising that non-Muslim groups in the area got control of some of the parts.
“Got control” is doing a lot of work in that sentence. You can’t just paper over British involvement and the hundreds of Palestinian villages that were destroyed in a mass ethnic cleansing campaign by Zionists. This was clearly a dramatic escalation in any religious or ethnic violence that occurred in the region as compared to years prior. You can’t just ignore that and expect anyone to think you’re discussing the issue in good faith.
Speaking of which, Palestine under Ottoman rule was more peaceful. The wiki articles you linked don’t even reference massacres happening in Palestine. So your point is moot.
Yes they do...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Safed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Tiberias
The British didn't start this shit. Not even close.
Who started it is moot though, neither side wants to peacefully end this so they're going to keep fighting.
You think that if the west stops supporting Israel that Hamas is just going to stop attacking? That's naïve as fuck. Hamas with Iran's support will just push into Israel and the table will just be tilted the other way instead.
That’s all you can come up with? An event that happened 288 years before the events of 1948? That’s supposed to disprove what I said about relative peace in the region for hundreds of years? You have to be kidding me.
Also saying the British had no role to play is just an outright lie. Who controlled Palestine from 1920-1948 I wonder? Could it have been an empire know for stoking sectarian conflict in order to further their own agenda, most famously in 1947 with the partitioning of India? This isn’t rocket science. It’s historical fact.
That said, the war crimes Israel is committing, the children they are killing, the collective punishment they are enforcing right now are not a rational response to Hamas. You can’t tried to murder and ethnically cleanse a people from their land and expect them to not be radicalized in the process. What Israel has been doing, what it is currently doing, will only make things worse for everyone including their own citizens.
If you can’t see that then you’re either blinded by propaganda or your own bloodlust.
Whats the rational response to Hamas then? Overwhelm them with aid?
If either side eliminates the other, peace will happen. That's generally how wars have worked through history. Even the ottomans didn't expand without conquering.
We act all morally enlightened these days, but we really aren't. We're just talking from the comfort of far away.
What you’re describing is genocide plain and simple. If I really have to explain to you why genocide is not a solution there really is no hope for you.
Yes it is Genocide, from both sides. That tends to happen in wars.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_and_genocide: The War and Genocide school of thought encompasses the vast majority of scholars and contends that those killed in war can be considered victims of genocide. Scholars in this school reference the genocidal capacities of certain methods of war, such as nuclear weapons, pattern-, fire-, and carpet-bombing, or other indiscriminate strategies, as the use of genocidal violence.
War may not be the best solution, but given that both sides want to exterminate the other, I'm not sure what compromise you expect until one side is weakened enough that they are forced to give up.