this post was submitted on 17 Jun 2023
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Underage fictional content is banned in first world countries like South Korea, Ireland, Norway, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and France. Do you really want to lump the very real discrimination that LGBTQ people face with someone's desire to get off to a 5 year old, sorry - 5000 year old school girl?
loli/shota don't refer to underage fictional content.
I think this loli/shota hate can indeed lead to real oppression yes. I'm an adult, I look like a minor. Do you believe it should be illegal for me to send nsfw photos of myself to people? To have a relationship with another adult? simply because I look underage? This is the sort of thing we're talking about here. Should I be banned from posting pics of myself simply because of the way I look?
lemmynsfw already explicitly stated they ban underage content. so to bring up underage content is dishonest.
I think this confusion comes from the phrasing of the original post, which was ambiguous about allowing underage content. Also, there's a difference between being an adult and looking teenage, and looking like a literal child (which I doubt you do). But regardless of appearances, you're a real person whose age we can verify. And yes, I'm a proponent of verifying people's ages.
An ambiguous image of a person that looks 10, but whose creator insists she's a 5000 year old dragon, doesn't hold up in many courts. Many international courts say "nice try but that's a 10 year old". And I don't disagree with them. Overall I just don't get it? Why the need to have that stuff on the major NSFW instance? By all means, put it on a side instance that can get blocked and banned, and if you really need to see it, either join a Lemmy that's super lax or roll your own.
Again, loli does not refer to age. You're confused. There are underage and underage looking anime characters. some who are loli and some who are not.
this isn't "they're a child and I just say they're older". non-loli anime children look different from loli anime adults.
lemmynsfw is clearly banning underage content and content that looks underage.
no matter how much you wish to try and twist words, the reality is that "oppai loli" is a thing that exists, and simply cannot refer to a child. to say that such is a child just shows you do not understand biology.
In terms of legality, I agree that if the server host is somewhere with particular laws, it's understandable that those laws must be followed. Perhaps lemmynsfw's ruling leads to illegal content for wherever kbin is hosted. In that case, I think it is fine for kbin to defederate.
Loli/shota do not refer to age. And lemmynsfw afaik has not allowed illegal content.
I looked underage for most of my adult life thus far, guess what I did? Dealt with it and enjoyed my life, I didn't insist that we should be able to freely publish nudes of myself so that pedos can jerk off to them.
Hell we're not even talking about free society here, if you look underage but are overage you're still free to exhibit your body in whatever art exhibit you want, digital or irl, that doesn't mean kbin should allow potentially illegal loli content to show up in users' feeds.
Did you not read my comment? I just said that if it is indeed illegal where the server is hosted, then defederating to follow such laws is understandable and okay.
If it's not illegal though? no issue.
I'm confused by your definition. When googling Loli, you get the lolicon Wikipedia page which has an image of girls that look... I'd say maybe 10? And Loli is named after Lolita, who in the book is like 12? I'm not seeing anywhere linking the definition of Loli to women that look clearly 18+ in any way. I'm not even seeing strong ties between Loli and girls that look 16.
My argument is that to appease the large number of countries that ban drawn lolicon, the biggest NSFW instance should take a safe stance and ban that content across the board. I don't care if other instances serve the needs of those who love lolicon, I'm happy to personally block any that pop up even if my instance doesn't. But the biggest NSFW instance can distances themselves. This is clearly a contentious issue and it is one that the international community hasn't made a firm decision on.
Here's a handy guide. Notably you'll probably be interested in uzaki and hestia who are clearly mature (have large breasts). all of the loli characters in the image are canonically adults, most of whom are natural ages (no 5000 years shit) and clearly look like adults. The only one that even remotely looks like a child here is hayase. Under the "not loli" section we see a list of canonically underage characters. most of whom are teenage and have either teenage or adult physiology drawn in a non-loli style.
For reference here is a child with two teens.
As you can see, loli is not an age. There are child characters in anime, including underage-looking adult characters, who are loli. However, loli does not exclusively refer to these sorts of characters. When I read lemmynsfw's rules, it's clear they would ban nsfw imagery of the child character in the second image, of a character like hayase, while allowing the rest.
I'd like to understand where you are coming from though. In the first image, do you think all of those characters "appear underage"? Do you think they should all be banned?
Edit: both pics are sfw.
Speaking as a weeb, the comment with the link is probably the best comment to try and understand where Otome-chan is coming from. (I tried replying to it, but threading breaks this many levels deep)
The bigger problem is that "loli" has become an appropriated term. It means different things to different people, and it's almost impossible to reach a rational consensus about it between in-groups and out-groups. To people outside the anime community it just means "pedo ~~bait~~ wank material", and anyone who argues is "clearly" splitting hairs and trying to defend an unjustifiable fetish. (Edit: To be clear here I didn't mean pedo bait in the "borderline" context that Otome-chan interpreted it below. Editing this in because I don't want to belabor this topic with another reply.)
I like shortstacks. I don't think normalizing pedophilia as an acceptable fetish in polite company is okay, keep that shit to yourself. I don't think the person I'm replying to endorses carte blanche pedophilia on kbin. Hardliners are still going to insist that these concepts are mutually exclusive, but I think that's as far as the discussion can usefully go.
In practice there's two kinds of lolis IMO. there's the stereotypic kind which is similar to chibi characters. there's pretty much unanimous consensus that these should not be involved in nsfw. then there's the "pedo bait" kind as mentioned, which is basically the anime equivalent of "recent 18" (but at any age). short, flat, youthful, not overtly a child.
it seems obvious that lemmynsfw has banned the former, and allowed the latter.
As for pedophilia: my stance is this: pedophilia is a mental disorder and those people should get medical treatment and help, CP of real people should be banned entirely and illegal. It is never okay.
The entire point of loli is that they look underage, and the whole loli industry is held up by paedos lmao
Is this image some sort of gospel? In that case, there's no visual or stylistic difference between Hestia and Naruse. Even Rory looks the same as the others. So clearly this image is piss poor at communicating some sort of clear visual definition of Loli.
For the record, out of the lolis, I'd count the first five as looking underage, not just the first one. This is largely due to their giant heads, tiny bodies.
Now here's the image Wikipedia uses for lolicon: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Lolicon_Sample.png/1280px-Lolicon_Sample.png
I think the consensus is that for anyone who is not a Loli connoisseur, lolicon is pretty much defined by Wikis view of it, not some random image that doesn't really clarify much about true Loli characteristics. I have no problem with hentai of adult or ambiguously adult characters. I'm just saying that if you're gonna call it Loli, people are gonna expect the image I linked to.
no? I just did a quick search, found it to be a useful guide, and shared.
yes they are indeed quite similar. hestia is borderline loli at best, but the point remains. Oshino is perhaps the best example of a typical loli character in that image.
Because you're failing to understand what loli actually is. First, there is a spectrum of appearances and styles. But second, that it's really not about age. It's a similar sort of situation to "chibi" which are also not children.
Yes so the characters shown in that pic do fall under "loli" but loli does not only refer to characters that look like that. loli characters can look like adults. they can look underage. they can be adults. they can be underage. they can look like a mix of underage and adult. Wikipedia's example is perhaps the most "extreme" usage of the word, which makes sense since it's trying to provide an example of the concept unambiguously. though a variety of examples are really needed tbh.
I mean you're free to think as you please. but it's clear you'd consider any man who dates me to be a pedophile which is obviously laughable.
Sure then I think it's a communication breakdown. When most people speak of nsfw imagery of lolis and say it's fine, they're talking about stuff like this (sfw example). undeniably a loli, not obviously a child. might be a teen or adult from visuals. The example wikipedia has is the other "popular" type of loli character, who typically do not show up in nsfw content except the most extreme, are considered 'looking underage' and pretty much banned from most nsfw stuff and lemmynsfw clearly has banned it.
To me, lemmynsfw's post seems to suggest the image I shared is allowed, while the image you shared is not. Is this not the interpretation you got as well? When people react harshly, to me I think it's because they are probably looking at that wiki image thinking that's what lemmynsfw is allowing (when it's not).
"loli" refers to both types.
This has nothing to do with banning and everything to do with filtering. Especially at this early moment when everyone lacks the ideal tools and functions to curate your iwn content across the Fediverse.
For now, you can always access both kbin and lemmy from a third instance thats federated with both, regardless of their direct federation to each other. When more tools exist for users to curate their own experience we can always federated up again.
Ireland is a third world country, literally
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World
And Ireland remained neutral, like other countries Finland, Sweden, Switzerland or Austria, making those countries third world countries, literally
Saying or implying third world countries are underdeveloped/poor countries is just a really bad stereotipe and shows your inculture
Yeah ok, I really love that Reddit's crappy pedantry about stuff that doesn't matter is bleeding into the new world. First world, to most of us not using 50 year old definitions, means countries universally accepted to have decent human rights. The topic reeled into the Middle East's laws surrounding LGBTQ people, which is a shit argument when talking about banning underage looking content which happens even in countries with great LGBTQ rights. Let's not pretend that the world is this fantastic equal place where the human experience is just dandy across the board.
Also I'm from a third world country! Yugoslavia was the founder of the neutral Non-Aligned movement. That makes it, by most definitions, third world.
If you know what the words mean why are you being so stubborn about it?
Why are you derailing an argument about adult underage content with definitions of the phrase first world?
They compared jacking it to underage-looking cartoons to playing video games - I think they're a nonce in denial lmao