this post was submitted on 08 Aug 2023
137 points (95.4% liked)
Green - An environmentalist community
5237 readers
5 users here now
This is the place to discuss environmentalism, preservation, direct action and anything related to it!
RULES:
1- Remember the human
2- Link posts should come from a reputable source
3- All opinions are allowed but discussion must be in good faith
Related communities:
- /c/collapse
- /c/antreefa
- /c/gardening
- /c/[email protected]
- /c/biology
- /c/criseciv
- /c/eco
- /c/[email protected]
- SLRPNK
Unofficial Chat rooms:
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
You need a baseline for a stable power grid, which renewables alone can't provide.
@Claidheamh @ndsvw
It depends on the renewables. Wind and photovoltaics have stability issues. Hydro and geothermal are more stable. Nuclear is compact and high power but has huge waste disposal issues.
The waste disposal is a solvable issue, that is still less nefarious than fossil fuel emissions. If you set the goal to replace ALL fossil fuel power generation, then nuclear is a necessary component of a renewable energy based grid. Geothermal and hydro are great and necessary, but can't provide a reliable base load for the entire grid. Nuclear plants are complemental to renewables, not competition.
What's the problem with how the waste is managed right now?
You don't need to plan "1000's of years into the future." Why does Nuclear require a multi-generational plan on a scale that no civilization has ever attained, but burning fossil fuels which will kill most of us within a few generations doesn't? It's a distraction, the solution to nuclear waste was solved in the 50's and the reality is that dangerous nuclear waste is useful and should be recycled, and the low-order nuclear waste isn't dangerous for anymore then a century at most, and even then it's only if you consume it.
Ok, but in 2022 alone Germany emitted 746 000 000 tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere. I'll take the 10.500 of easily containable waste over 60 years, please. In fact, let's do 5x that. Or even 10x.
I don't want maximise nuclear waste, I want to minimise carbon emissions.
Germany decided to minimise nuclear waste, and while doing that they're having to fire up fossil fuel powerplants. Does that sound right to you?
https://strom-report.com/strom/
Kind of says the opposite, doesn't it?
No, it really does not. That compares power generation mix, not total capacity, over the same periods of different years, which you can't interpret in a vacuum. Look at the neighbouring countries' data so you can normalise the data and analyse it properly. It may very well be that total power generation in the period they're comparing is down overall due to a warmer winter. So it stands to reason that so would fossil fuels.
If you want to interpret it properly, we can go over it, but it won't tell you much about what we're talking about. The matter is that while we're in a fullblown climate crisis, and what we're doing is insufficient, they reopened coal plants:
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-reactivates-coal-fired-power-plant-to-save-gas/a-62893497
And are planning to expand gas generation capacity: https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/germany-plans-build-25-gw-new-gas-fired-capacity-2030.html
And none of it would be necessary had they not closed their very well performing NPPs.
We need to be doing everything we can to decarbonise, and I honestly don't understand why we keep having this 60 year old discussion, the same as the previous generations that have led us to this point. It really only serves so that fossil fuel magnates can keep lining their pockets as the world burns. Somehow they've convinced people that nuclear is competition for renewables instead of complementary, it's really incredible to me.
Your first link is almost one year old. They did indeed prepare for a worst case, which didn't occur after all. Coal and gas consumption (total, not just percentage wise) did not go up, but down instead.
Yes, a mild winter helped. Unfortunately, winters are getting warmer and warmer, and the last one was no exception there.
So why is your country's emissions per capita more than 50% higher than France's (from here), despite a much higher renewables percentage in the power mix? Might it have something to do with how much more nuclear they have?
Looking through your post history, we seem to be aligned in advocating for decarbonisation. If you really want to reach zero emissions as soon as possible, don't you think we should be exploring every carbon free avenue, and shutting down every single fossil fuel power plant?
Don't fall for your government's justifications, or fearmongering around nuclear. If we want to decarbonise the grid, we need it to complement renewables and fill the roles that renewables can't by themselves. The longer we take to realise that, the longer we'll keep burning greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.
I'm not paying €79/month to review the whole statistics, but you know perfectly well that France started from a much lower number. They already had nuclear when we started to roll out renewables on a large scale. Are you by any chance familiar with the term "head start"?
But decisions from 40 years ago are irrelevant for decisions today. Spilled milk.
Sure. But nuclear is probably not the answer: we don't have those decades left it takes to build hundreds of new plants. Not to mention the astronomical cost. The ship had sailed 30 years ago.
Edit: the last 3 nuclear plants we shut down this year had a combined capacity of around 4 GW. In 2022 we installed over 7 GW of solar and about 2.5 GW of wind capacity (this year it will probably significantly more)
We don't need hundreds of new plants. France only has around 50 and it's more than enough. It's also feasible to retrofit existing coal plants with nuclear reactors, for example.
30 years ago it was the same argument. "It takes too long, we needed to have started earlier". Well, here we are now. Let's not have kids 30 years from now saying the same thing.
France regularly imports (renewable) electricity from Germany when they have to shut down some of their reactors due to cooling problems in summer. So 50 are not enough. For a smaller economy.
Every country imports electricity from their neighbours. Germany also imports from France. That's how an interconnected power grid works.
Yes, but for decades Germany has been a net exporter. Which is good for our economy.
Well, so has France. And at a larger percentage. While emitting disproportionately less carbon, which, again, is the whole point of this conversation. I'd rather not sacrifice climate for the sake of economy. Especially because the economy will suffer a lot more if we don't get emissions under control.
You can't just ignore the cost. Why spend €100 on nuclear, when you can generate 3 times as much electricity using wind, with the same amount?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelized_cost_of_electricity
Because they fill different roles in the power grid? They don't replace each other. Haven't you been reading what I've been saying all this time or what? Nuclear works WITH renewables. It's fossil fuels we need to phase out, and nuclear can fill their role when renewables can't.
I have been reading what you wrote, but I don't consider your "renewables can't" a valid point. They can.
But I don't think we will ever be able to convince each other. Can we agree on that?
In many places, a lot of the time, they can. But not everywhere, all of the time.
The problem is that if even fellow environmentalists like yourself keep thinking of nuclear like a boogeyman, or just not knowing how a power grid works, then we stand no hope of decarbonising power generation. Did you know fossil fuel use is growing worldwide in electricity generation while nuclear is stagnating? The way to decrease that that brown area is by increasing all the other colours in similar proportion. There are circumstances where a fully renewable grid is possible, but those conditions aren't the same everywhere, and those niches will continue to be filled by fossil fuels until we stop being afraid of the much better alternative. The fact is countries with higher percentages of nuclear in their power mix have much lower emissions per GDP per capita than their neighbours. So I may not be able to convince you, but I'm going to keep trying to educate anyway.
Tell me, then, how can you have a stable grid with renewables alone in places where (or when) pumped hydro isn't feasible or can't provide enough power by itself? Or in countries prone to lengthy droughts, like my own? I'm not asking this to argue, but because our disagreement may come from a misunderstanding of the base working principles of the power grid.
It's called nuclear reprocessing and it was banned as a compromise between the USSR and the USA because it can also be used to make weapons. The USSR is gone now, and any country that wants to do it is more then welcome to withdraw from the nuclear reprocessing treaty. They can do it unilaterally without any risk at all and that takes care of their existing and future high-order nuclear waste in one fell-swoop.
Strangely enough it hasn't been solved in the almost 70 years of nuclear energy. And I doubt it will be solved in the next 70 years either.
I think that depends on the definition of "solved".
In Finland, the Onkalo repository is being steadily built out (honestly, there might already be waste stored there, I haven't checked in on that story in a while. I know there was some delay due to COVID).
In the United States, there's been a lot of the usual politicking about where to build something that doesn't exactly sound appealing to have in one's backyard. Nobody wants to be the senator who allowed the government to build a nuclear waste site in their state, no matter how safe the site actually is.
This has led to the unfortunate situation where by law, the EPA is only allowed to consider a site in Nevada (because the other sites were in states represented by the Speaker of the House and President pro Tempore of the Senate), but because Nevada became an important state for Obama to become president, the site couldn't/wouldn't actually be built there and has been on hold pretty much ever since. My armchair understanding is that the Nevada site is probably one of the better places in the United States that you could store nuclear waste, but politics has ensured it will not be put there for a long, long time.
What do you prefer? A power plant where all the hazardous material it generates you throw out into the atmosphere, or one where you can capture all of it into a container and prevent it from going out into the environment?
Neither. I don't buy the assumption that they are necessary. Renewables plus storage are very well capable of reliable supply.
Edit: https://www.diw.de/de/diw_01.c.821878.de/publikationen/wochenberichte/2021_29_1/100_prozent_erneuerbare_energien_fuer_deutschland__koordinierte_ausbauplanung_notwendig.html (in German, published by the German Institute for Economic Research, an institution as unsuspicious of being "too green" as it gets)
Don't get me wrong, they are capable of a much larger percentage of supply than they currently provide, but to handle the predictable periods of peak demand on the grid, it would be incredibly inefficient to rely only on renewables plus storage. It's not the most environmentally friendly solution for that.
Do you have an english translation for the link in the edit btw?
Being too green is not the problem. The problem is not being green enough...
Unfortunately, no. Most of the site lets you choose English, but for this specific article you'd need Google translate, or deepl, or whatever else.
It has, it's just illegal to do in the US. France has been doing it since the 60s.
It was solved less then 10 years after nuclear power was discovered.
@Claidheamh
Nuclear is also very expensive. Bioenergy is the one I missed. That is far cheaper than nuclear and could be scaled up easily. I'm sure there will be a need for both the existing nuclear and indeed some fossil fuels for a while yet. But I think we should focus on getting our renewable energy resources in place in advance of building any new nuclear plants.
It may be expensive to build, but it's much cheaper to run. Just compare France's and Germany's energy prices.
Bioenergy is just more emissions we really can't afford to put into the atmosphere. It's basically just a fancy name for "burning wood".
@Claidheamh straw too. Biofuels are in fact carbon neutral. But yes release CO2. Nuclear also produces CO2 mainly due to the mining, processing and transportation of the fuel. But far less than say coal or gas. The reality is that some new reactors are going to be built. But I believe the money would have been better invested in onshore wind.
That's what their marketing would like you to believe. But they're only carbon neutral if you take into account the carbon being sequestered by the growth of plants before they're burned. By that measure they're just as carbon neutral as coal.
That's not nuclear that produces CO2, that's mining, processing, and transportation. It's transversal to anything you build, be it nuclear, bioenergy, wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, anything. In the ideal conditions of your power being entirely carbon-free, then so is all of that.
Wind, solar, geothermal etc. need constant mining of fuel?
They need one-time mining of construction material to build those things, and that's it, for the next few decades.
Point is that's just as big an "it" as the nuclear costs. Which, in a zero emissions world, is a very small "it". I'm not arguing against renewables, I'm arguing against fossil fuels. We need to replace all of it ASAP, and realistically nuclear is the easiest, most reliable way to reach that goal. Just compare Germany and France's emissions per capita, and then the distribution of their power source, and electricity costs.
ASAP? Take a look at planning and construction times of nuclear plants. Like Hinkley Point C in the UK for instance. Announced in 2010, generation now postponed to 2026, years behind schedule and billions over budget. And that's on an already pre-existing nuclear site.
Cost? Estimated 100 GBP/MWh. The difference to market prices will probably be coughed up by the taxpayer.
Renewables are way faster to install, for a fraction of the cost.
They should have started sooner and with more plants. But it's still much better for that nuclear plant be complete in 2030, than never. Delays and mismanagement aren't unique to nuclear, and no excuse to stop from building it.
So why are we still using fossil fuels then? The best time to start building alternatives is yesterday. Second best time is now.
You already gave the answer: Because they should have started sooner.
I don't support any continued burning it fossil fuels. That's what every previous generation said and look at the thermometer.
@lntl nor do I
In that case you should be in favor of nuclear, as it's the only real replacement we have for fossil fuels, no matter what Shell and BP will try to tell us.