Late Stage Capitalism

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A place for for news, discussion, memes, and links criticizing capitalism and advancing viewpoints that challenge liberal capitalist ideology. That means any support for any liberal capitalist political party (like the Democrats) is strictly prohibited.

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K1nsey6

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Gotta start them off young (lemmy.world)

submitted 5 days ago by K1nsey6 to c/latestagecapitalism

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

but corporate firms, investment banks, stock markets, ownership and commodification of land, and other hallmarks of capitalism are more recent.

these are more recent, and the things they have done, are in fact, also more recent, HOWEVER. The point you entirely miss out on here, is that capitalism is ultimately just an extension of mankind. There is nothing inherently different from capitalism, to any prior system, in the context of abuse of human rights, or however you wish to frame that particular problem.

It's merely an extension of the problem that has plagued humanity throughout history. I don't think as the meme suggests, that this is a problem with capitalism, i think this is a problem with humanity, and capitalism just allows it to bleed through, as every other system throughout history has done, and every new system ever invented will continue to be vulnerable to. I do not think this is a problem that can be solved.

also to be fair, that meme is probably missing out on the hundreds of millions of human causalities that were had during the time period of the USSR. No system is immune to this problem.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I haven't missed the point, I'm already actively arguing against it. You're attempting to hand-wave away examples on how capitalism is worse than the systems of exploitation that came before it.

There is nothing inherently different from capitalism, to any prior system, in the context of abuse of human rights, or however you wish to frame that particular problem.

This is entirely reductive and sets you up for a head-in-the-sand defense of capitalism, where you don't have to engage with evidence because golly gee, people are just gonna always be evil and if you sorta squint at history, you can just smear a whole bunch stuff together and pretend that it's basically the same.

This rambling paragraph about "...the problem that has plagued humanity..." is completely incoherent. You fail to even attempt to describe what this problem is, yet then proceed to assign all of our ills to it, before concluding that no solution for it will ever be found. Is it the fabled boogeyman who comes to visit us over and over, turning our best laid plans against us every time? I suspect it is your pessimism for humanity that is the problem in your understanding.

I don't know enough about communism to talk about it, but I've been building a reading list to learn more this year. I do know that there have been serious atrocities committed by Communist forces. I'm sure there are lots of estimates and comparisons on body counts for both isms, but I also think that a number like "hundreds of millions" should have a little more evidence to support it other than vibes.

A simple Google search finds this entry about mass killings under communism. Estimates at the highest are 148 million for all communist regimes combined. I don't think you know enough specifics to speak on this issue. When you bring numbers into a discussion they need to be grounded in something other than your feelings.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You’re attempting to hand-wave away examples on how capitalism is worse than the systems of exploitation that came before it.

that's literally not the argument here, you're just arguing against a strawman right now. I don't disagree that capitalism is explorative. I just think that all of human society is to some degree built on an exploitative system. It's extremely difficult to establish a consistent means of defining what "exploitation" is throughout human society as well, mostly because history is really fucking hard.

my argument was that humans are innately exploitative of other humans given the means to exploit them, which seems to be supported throughout human history. And therefore, i don't believe this is a problem specifically bound within the jurisdiction of capitalism, but merely an extension of the outside want to exploit, being pushed forward IN capitalism. Capitalism doesn't do anything to stop this (yes it does) nor does it do anything to make it easier (you could probably argue it does, but you're grasping at straws there) in fact it's very easy to argument that it is the government overseeing the bounds of capitalism, that allows and in some cases, encourages exploitation of it's labor pool.

This is entirely reductive and sets you up for a head-in-the-sand defense of capitalism, where you don’t have to engage with evidence because golly gee, people are just gonna always be evil and if you sorta squint at history, you can just smear a whole bunch stuff together and pretend that it’s basically the same.

i mean, unless you're going to demonstrate this, have fun with that strawman.

I suspect it is your pessimism for humanity that is the problem in your understanding.

perhaps my pessimism is problematic, but being optimistic about the outlook of humanity doesn't have any known effect on the exploitation of people, arguably the opposite in fact.

I’m sure there are lots of estimates and comparisons on body counts for both isms, but I also think that a number like “hundreds of millions” should have a little more evidence to support it other than vibes.

look at any of the wars the soviet union was involved in, especially under the leadership of stalin, not only did stalin have a penchant for murdering his own people for convenience reasons, he also did it on mass throughout ww2. The famines are notable, especially with how much exporting of grain they did, although there are arguments against this (it may be more economical to export grain, and then import other food)

100's of millions is definitely quite a significant claim, it's known that there is somewhere between 10-20 million for sure. From what i can recall, we don't really have any good data on this unfortunately. 100's of millions may have been a fat finger typo, it may not have, but it's most definitely a bit unserious.

I don’t think you know enough specifics to speak on this issue. When you bring numbers into a discussion they need to be grounded in something other than your feelings.

in my defense, i didn't list a specific number for that reason, i would've done so otherwise.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago

Again, I already understand what you're saying, I simply don't accept it. Why didn't you just start with the unbounded market capitalism solves everything approach? Would've made it easier to spot bad faith.