this post was submitted on 23 Nov 2024

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138

Afghan Army defector poses with Mujahedeen against the Soviet invasion, 1980 (lemmy.world)

submitted 2 weeks ago by PugJesus to c/historyporn

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[–] [email protected] -3 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Kicking out savages to replace them with your own savagery isn’t the win you think it is.

It's not their "own savagery" the Taliban aren't originally from Afghanistan. They were originally from Saudi Arabia and were part of the US effort to subvert the Soviet invasion.

[–] PugJesus 4 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

It’s not their “own savagery” the Taliban aren’t originally from Afghanistan. They were originally from Saudi Arabia and were part of the US effort to subvert the Soviet invasion.

The Taliban came after the Soviets were kicked out of Afghanistan, and were not part of the original Mujahedeen. They, in fact, were instrumental in overthrowing the fractured Mujahedeen-led government in the 90s.
The Taliban were financed by and originally based in Pakistan, not Saudi Arabia.
The US never supported the Taliban.

Asserts the Taliban were Saudi, not Pakistani in origin
Thinks the Taliban existed in the 80s and fought the Soviets
Does not understand the difference between the factions outside of the Northern Alliance and the Taliban
Thinks that religious radicalism was new to Afghanistan in the 80s rather than something that had been long-established in the country since at least the 19th century
Apparently is incapable of reading the wiki articles they copy and paste
Thinks everyone else is uninformed

lmao

[–] [email protected] -2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The Taliban originally came from pashtun nationalist who taught a long side with the mujahideen, but we're radicalized by sunni extremism taught by madrasa near Kandahar. These schools were funded by the United States and Saudi Arabia who agreed to match the US dollar to dollar in funding the counter insurgency in Afghanistan.

I believe you are talking about Al-Qaeda

The Taliban's roots lie in the religious schools of Kandahar and were influenced significantly by foreign support, particularly from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, during the Soviet–Afghan War.

Additionally, both Saudi Arabia and the United States shared common geo-political goals such as countering the influence of the Soviet Union during the Cold War.[31] The Saudis' increase in oil production to stabilize the oil price and its support of anti-communism contributed to closer relations with the U.S.[27] In January 1979, the U.S. sent F-15 fighters to Saudi Arabia as part of its anti-communist campaign.[27] Furthermore, the U.S. and Saudi Arabia were both supporting anti-communist groups in Afghanistan and various countries.[33]

After the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in December 1979, relations between Saudi Arabia and the United States further strengthened as both governments began jointly co-ordinating to assist Afghan resistance militias, which waged guerilla warfare against Soviet occupation forces across Afghanistan.[31]

Who was funding Pakistan.....?

President Reagan's new priorities and the unlikely and remarkably effective effort by Congressman Charles Wilson (D-TX), aided by Joanne Herring, and CIA Afghan Desk Chief Gust Avrakotos to increase the funding for Operation Cyclone. Aid to the Afghan resistance, and to Pakistan, increased substantially, finally reaching $1 billion. The United States, faced with a rival superpower looking as if it were to create another Communist bloc, now engaged Zia in fighting a US-supported war by proxy in Afghanistan against the Soviets.

The US never supported the Taliban.

Yeah, they were pretty much funding any anti-soviet forces in the region.

After the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in 1979, the United States in coordination with regional partners such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan launched a covert campaign, Operation Cyclone, to support the Afghan mujahideen resistance to the Soviet occupation. While American funding for weapons and military equipment for the mujahideen is well known, many are unaware of the significant expenditures by the American government through USAID to provide educational materials and textbooks to mujahideen parties and Afghan children.4 Published and distributed by the University of Nebraska-Omaha (UNO), this program attempted to encourage a violent resistance to Soviet forces in Afghanistan by shaping the educational program of Afghan youth. However, the content of these textbooks blatantly promoted jihad, militancy, and violence through graphic language and imagery. The textbooks included clear messages aimed at evoking hostility towards Russian invaders and promoting violent retribution against occupiers of Afghanistan. Textbooks designed to teach children to read and basic mathematics simultaneously emphasize weapons, killings, jihad, and Islamism. Although American officials claimed that they did not want to impose American values on Afghan educators, their failure to question the radical content presented in the textbooks reveals how countering Soviet communist influence transcended the potential destabilizing consequences of this program on the Afghan political situation. This intervention in Afghan education is emblematic of a broader pattern in how American policymakers fail to consider the long-term ramifications of their actions on the everyday lives of the Afghan people.

[–] PugJesus 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The Taliban originally came from pashtun nationalist who taught a long side with the mujahideen, but we’re radicalized by sunni extremism taught by madrasa near Kandahar.

They emerged in Afghanistan in the mid-1990s,

A small Taliban militia first emerged near Kandahar in the spring and summer of 1994, committing vigilante acts against minor warlords, with a fund of US$250,000 being supplied to it by local businessmen.

Want to tell me when the Soviets left Afghanistan? Go on. Give me a year.

Who was funding Pakistan…?

Does this mean that the US has sold US military secrets to China, since Israel has done so and we fund Israel? Come the fuck on. Pakistan has always played a double game for its own interests.

Yeah, they were pretty much funding any anti-soviet forces in the region.

Yes, which did not include the Taliban, as the Taliban didn't even fucking exist at the time.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Want to tell me when the Soviets left Afghanistan? Go on. Give me a year.

Lol, you are being pedantic. The mujahideen basically split between the Taliban and and the northern alliance.

Just because they had a name change doesn't mean that the US Pakistan and the sauds aren't responsible for importing sunni extremism and then training, funding, and arming the future Taliban.

My whole point is that sunni extremism and sharia law isn't native to the Afghan culture. It was imported as a ploy to fight of the Soviet invasion.

Even the fucking CIA isn't in as much denialism as you.

[–] PugJesus 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Lol, you are being pedantic.

Being pedantic by pointing out that the org you claim the US supported didn't even exist at the time you assert it was being supported.

What pedantry. Non-existence is such a minor factor.

The mujahideen basically split between the Taliban and and the northern alliance.

The Mujahedeen 'split' between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance once the Taliban destroyed every Mujahedeen faction other than the Northern Alliance during the civil war in the 90s.

Just because they had a name change

'Not existing' is a lot bigger than a 'name change'.

doesn’t mean that the US Pakistan and the sauds aren’t responsible for importing sunni extremism and then training, funding, and arming the future Taliban.

This is the only point you have even partially correct. The US is absolutely responsible for funding the war against the Soviets without bothering to care if that money reinforced religious traditionalism, and absolutely responsible for letting the Pakistani ISI handle large amounts of US-provided resources without any sort of oversight. The rest? That Sunni extremism isn't 'native' to 'Afghan culture'? That the Mujahedeen were just the future Taliban? Fuck's sake.

My whole point is that sunni extremism and sharia law isn’t native to the Afghan culture. It was imported as a ploy to fight of the Soviet invasion.

Jesus fucking Christ. Tell me you know nothing about the 19th and 20th centuries in Afghanistan without telling me you know nothing about the 19th and 20th centuries in Afghanistan.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

by pointing out that the org you claim the US supported didn't even exist at the time you assert it was being supported.

Lol, would you really rather I be as pedantic and change it to "the US supported radical extremist within the mujahideen that would become known as the taliban?"

The Mujahedeen 'split' between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance once the Taliban destroyed every Mujahedeen faction other than the Northern Alliance during the civil war in the 90s.

Yes, the mujahedeen had an internal crisis and split into mainly two different factions, as I said.

Not existing' is a lot bigger than a 'name change'.

Lol, what do you think they just suddenly appeared from nowhere? Mullah Omar was a general for the mujahedeen, same with Mohammad Yunus Khalis. They and other important leaders around Kandahar formed the Taliban from the mujahedeen fighters loyal to them.

The rest? That Sunni extremism isn't 'native' to 'Afghan culture'? That the Mujahedeen were just the future Taliban? Fuck's sake.

It literally isn't.... And yes the mujahedeen outside the northern alliance were just the future Taliban.

"The Soviet invasion and the Iranian Revolution not only led national uprisings but also the importation of foreign radical Muslims to Afghanistan. The mujahideen leaders were charismatic figures with dyadic ties to followers. In many cases military and political leaders replaced the tribal leadership; at times the religious leadership was strengthened; often the religious combined with the political leadership. Followers selected their local leaders on the basis of personal choice and precedence among regions, sects, ethnic groups or tribes, but the major leaders rose to prominence through their ties to outsiders who controlled the resources of money and arms.

With the support of foreign aid, the mujahideen were ultimately successful in their jihad to drive out the Soviet forces, but not in their attempts to construct a political alternative to govern Afghanistan after their victory. Throughout the war, the mujahideen were never fully able to replace traditional structures with a modern political system based on Islam. Most mujahideen commanders either used traditional patterns of power, becoming the new khans, or sought to adapt modern political structures to the traditional society. In time the prominent leaders accumulated wealth and power and, in contrast to the past, wealth became a determining factor in the delineation of power at all levels."

Jesus fucking Christ. Tell me you know nothing about the 19th and 20th centuries in Afghanistan without telling me you know nothing about the 19th and 20th centuries in Afghanistan.

Lol, dude. Did you learn Afghan history from watching Rambo or something? All of this is fairly well known.

[–] PugJesus 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Lol, would you really rather I be as pedantic and change it to “the US supported radical extremist within the mujahideen that would become known as the taliban?”

"The US supported the Mujahedeen against Soviet invasion, including radical religious extremists. Years later, after the Soviets left the country and Afghanistan had spent half a decade quarreling amongst themselves, the Taliban, a radical extremist organization formed in the mid-90s, would draw on religious extremism in the country to leverage into success over the fragmented Mujahedeen warlords in the Afghan government. This apparently means that the US supported the Taliban."

Yes, the mujahedeen had an internal crisis and split into mainly two different factions, as I said.

"split into mainly two different factions"

Again, you don't seem to actually be grasping how the Afghan civil wars in the 90s played out.

Lol, what do you think they just suddenly appeared from nowhere

Did I say that? I explicitly noted the strengthening of religious radicalism in the country, but reading comprehension is apparently not your strong point, considering the wiki excerpt you posted.

They and other important leaders around Kandahar formed the Taliban from the mujahedeen fighters loyal to them.

They literally recruited from religious schools, largely not mujahedeen veterans, most of whom that were still interested in fighting were already serving under various warlords. Fuck's sake, does "Mujahedeen" just mean "Religious Afghan" to you or something?

It literally isn’t… And yes the mujahedeen outside the northern alliance were just the future Taliban.

Jesus fucking Christ.

"The Soviet invasion and the Iranian Revolution not only led national uprisings but also the importation of foreign radical Muslims to Afghanistan.

Bruh, are you just continually quoting snippets of wikipedia here without actually reading them?

The mujahideen leaders were charismatic figures with dyadic ties to followers.. In many cases military and political leaders replaced the tribal leadership; at times the religious leadership was strengthened; often the religious combined with the political leadership. Followers selected their local leaders on the basis of personal choice and precedence among regions, sects, ethnic groups or tribes, but the major leaders rose to prominence through their ties to outsiders who controlled the resources of money and arms.

With the support of foreign aid, the mujahideen were ultimately successful in their jihad to drive out the Soviet forces, but not in their attempts to construct a political alternative to govern Afghanistan after their victory. Throughout the war, the mujahideen were never fully able to replace traditional structures with a modern political system based on Islam. Most mujahideen commanders either used traditional patterns of power, becoming the new khans, or sought to adapt modern political structures to the traditional society. In time the prominent leaders accumulated wealth and power and, in contrast to the past, wealth became a determining factor in the delineation of power at all levels."

Literally none of that supports your point, other than the outsiders poured in arms and money into Afghanistan, which was never contested. Jesus fucking Christ.

Lol, dude. Did you learn Afghan history from watching Rambo or something? All of this is fairly well known.

"All of this is fairly well known"

Coming from someone who:

Asserted the Taliban were Saudi, not Pakistani in origin
Thinks the Taliban existed in the 80s and fought the Soviets
Does not understand the difference between the factions outside of the Northern Alliance and the Taliban
Thinks that religious radicalism was new to Afghanistan in the 80s rather than something that had been long-established in the country since at least the 19th century
Apparently is incapable of reading the wiki articles they copy and paste

lmao

We're done here.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The US supported the Mujahedeen against Soviet invasion, including radical religious extremists. Years later, after the Soviets left the country and Afghanistan had spent half a decade quarreling amongst themselves, the Taliban, a radical extremist organization formed in the mid-90s, would draw on religious extremism in the country to leverage into success over the fragmented Mujahedeen warlords in the Afghan government. This apparently means that the US supported the Taliban."

Lol, yes.

Again, you don't seem to actually be grasping how the Afghan civil wars in the 90s played out.

Sure..... Even though you've had to back track and largely agree with me.

Did I say that? I explicitly noted the strengthening of religious radicalism in the country, but reading comprehension is apparently not your strong point, considering the wiki excerpt you posted.

Yeah, you are largely agreeing with me that the radicalism suddenly increased, my claim with supporting sources was that the religious indoctrination was imported.

They literally recruited from religious schools,

Religious school created by radical sunnis with support from the US, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia.

largely not mujahedeen veterans, most of whom that were still interested in fighting were already serving under various warlords. Fuck's sake, does "Mujahedeen" just mean "Religious Afghan" to you or something?

Lol, all the leaders of the Taliban were higher up mujahedeen. What are you talking about about?

Mujahedeen" just mean "Religious Afghan" to you or something?

Lol, my dude.... in pashtun it literally translates to -strugglers or strivers, doers of jihād'

Bruh, are you just continually quoting snippets of wikipedia here without actually reading them?

Bruh, can you not remember my original claims?

Literally none of that supports your point, other than the outsiders poured in arms and money into Afghanistan, which was never contested. Jesus fucking Christ.

What are you contesting? Seems like the only thing you have a problem with is a pedantic dispute.....

Asserted the Taliban were Saudi, not Pakistani in origin

The religious extremism is Saudi, the Saudi also imported this extremism into Pakistan before Afghanistan...

Thinks the Taliban existed in the 80s and fought the Soviets

Again.... Another pedantic dispute.

Thinks that religious radicalism was new to Afghanistan in the 80s rather than something that had been long-established in the country since at least the 19th century

Lol, making a lot of assertion with no evidence.

"By the 20th century, Islam made up as much as 99 percent of the population. The country's religious minorities such as Hindus and Jews did, however, enjoy "complete religious freedom" as of the early 1970s.[25] Men praying at the Blue Mosque (or Shrine of Ali) in the northern Afghan city of Mazar-i-Sharif The 1979 Soviet invasion in support of a communist government triggered a major intervention of religion into Afghan political conflict. The Democratic Republic of Afghanistan (1980–1987) was a secular state; Islam united the multi-ethnic political opposition."

We're done here.

Gladly. You are clearly a person incapable of admitting they were wrong.

[–] Eheran 2 points 2 weeks ago

"Lol, no"

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago

the Taliban aren't originally from Afghanistan.

You corrected yourself below but this is so wrong...