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this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2024
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MeanwhileOnGrad
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Had to go looking, but I found the image this comment is in reaction to.
spoiler
It's a cartoon from "Liberation" newspaper in france, and the caption is "Ramadan in Gaza" (published just after the hunanitarian aid blockade and famine crisis started in Gaza, for which Israel is now being accused as an act of genocide)
The woman in a hijab is slapping the hand of an emaciated Gazan chasing after a rat, presumably to catch and eat it, and saying "Not before sunset"
It's a pretty openly Islamophobic joke about Gazan's starving during the month of Ramadan where muslims traditionally fast from sunrise to sunset.
I don't think it should need to be said, but even orthodox Muslims recognize exceptions to fasting during ramadan for starvation and bodily injury.
Pretty sure that's the joke. It'd be real absurd if a cartoon acted otherwise.
The joke only works if the reader holds the Islamophobic view that Palestinians were starving because their faith forbids them from eating, and not because Israel was starving them by blockading humanitarian aid.
Nah, that's the commentary. If "starving because of religion" is a silly fabrication, what's the reality?
Israel wants them dead or gone so they can have their land.
Religion is what they use justify their lack of humanity, but its simple greed and depravity that motivates them to abandon it.
Exaclty, it's not a complicated cartoon
Strange way to evoke Israel's motivation to starve Gazans by pointing to the religion of the victims.
True! The absurd misdirect almost makes the joke clever, in an underwhelming kind of way. Bit of a groaner really
lmao, the thing you're insisting is the subject of this cartoon is literally not present in it.
You're right. If you don't see it, it's not real. I can't change that.
Go ahead and point to the character in the cartoon that's meant to represent israel. I'll wait.
I don't understand why you act like an authority on the author's message if you can't see Israel's presence in the bombed out landscape, the dead under rubble, and the starving men, women, and children.
You said yourself, these are Isreal's crimes against gaza and its people. If you really need labels and caricatures, maybe ben garrison is more your speed.
Even in the most charitable reading, Israel's atrocities are only the backdrop to what is objectively about Arab Muslims and Islamic practices specifically
It isn't israel slapping the hand of a starving Gazan, it's a Muslim woman in Islamic dressings.
You dont have to be the author to see that they've left israel out of this drawing
Sure, only have to be dishonest or ignorant to disconnect the circumstances from their perpetrators.
Bud, that is literally what the cartoon is doing, Jesus christ.
Good job for seeing past the cartoon i guess but you're hallucinating commentary that isn't there lmao.
This is like when Musk thought the 'machine' in 'Rage Against the Machine' was supposed to be communism lol
That's fine. If you don't understand how Israel affects Gaza, I can't make you.
I see it as a joke on how religious fundamentalists would rather condemn their children to die over their own religious choices (which includes waging religious wars)
Religion is all these people have left. Can't condemn them for their last semblance of hope in a hostile environment. Nor can you place sole blame on religion for the conflict. It's a lot deeper than that
(They are allowed to eat during Ramadan. that is if Egypt and Israel didn't withhold international aid, such as flour)
I'd suggest they find something better than religion to put their hope in.
Claiming this conflict isn't about religion is like claiming the US civil war wasn't about slavery. In the end it's jews that wanted the territory to be jewish, and muslims that wanted the territory to remain muslim. If judaism and islam hadn't existed, all of the 'deeper' reasons and divisions just fall away.
Err, I actually kinda like this comparison to the civil war - not because the war in Gaza is 'about religion' - but because it's about Israel's right to occupy/subjugate Palestinian territories and Palestinians within the West Bank and Gaza, which is similar to the South fighting over their right to own/subjugate people of color (though not entirely, since Israel doesn't claim racial superiority (at least not explicitly)).
What's strange about this comparison is that it inadvertently casts Israel as the slavers, even though it seems like the intent is to indict both Judaism and Islam equally
I think you can argue that for every single conflict in history
WW1; WW2; Korea; Vietnam; the Gulf Wars; Russian revolution; French revolution; US revolution; US civil war; ...
Religious fundamentalists do not encourage or instruct fasting during an ongoing famine (not even Islamic ones).
Thinking that they do (and laughing about it) while they starve at the hands of their colonial occupier is honest-to-god nazi-level genocide apologia.
You'd be hard pressed to find a cartoonist more fond of mocking neo-nazi's than the one who drew this
It's mocking adults who'd prefer to die for their religion for condemning their kids (and their kids) to do the same. If you believe they're starving their kids directly then this newspaper is too difficult for you
Of course they're not suggesting they're 'starving their kids directly', but what they are doing is sidelining the colonial power actually responsible for their starvation and instead holding up an inaccurate and bigoted portrayal of their religious practices as a stand-in for Israel's culpability.
To blame Muslims for Israel's sustained genocidal bombardment of innocent Gazans is a level of depraved racist bigotry I honestly never thought I'd witness in my time. The Nazis blamed the Jews for their own extermination, and that is precisely what you are doing here.
Don't call others Nazis. Not allowed.
What about when they're actually a Nazi?
What makes you think they're a nazi?
I don't, but you stated that like it's an absolute community rule.
Do we need to report suspicious antisocial behavior to the commissars or can we say someone saying actual Nazi things is a Nazi?
Does "don't be a dick" still apply to justified accusations based on evidence, in other words?
If you don't think they are a nazi, then what's your concern?
Future reference for when actual Nazis wander in, as they always will to any community that seems to focus on criticizing communists.
Or 40k.
Well, I'm quite experienced with Neo-nazis, and I'm aware of all the tactics they use, same with other extremists. They are not in this community.
If you find any, you be sure to let me know.
You can just say "it's an absolute rule" then.
I don't understand
You said "Don't call people Nazis in this sub, ever."
I said "Even if they're literally Nazis? Or do we just report them to the authorities for detention and separation from civilized society?"
Then you said "Yes."
Which is fine, I just wanted clarity that Nazis are for banning, not responding to.
Okay, great.
they aren't a nazi though, just want to make that clear
Point to where I called him a Nazi and I'll disavow communism and join the IOF.
why disavow communism?
That Nazis did blame the Jews for their own extermination, and that is what that person was doing.
Nowhere did I say that he was a Nazi.
Close, but thanks for following directions.
lol
'I didn't call him a nazi! I said that he's being a nazi! completely different.'
@[email protected], do you feel as if he called you a nazi?
Lmao I didn't even say he was being a nazi, I said he was using the same rhetoric the Nazis used
He could think I called him a platypus, that wouldn't make it accurate.
edit: conspicuously absent is your opinion on if what he was doing was blaming the Palestinian Genocide on their Islamic beliefs, and if (to your recollection) the Nazis also blamed the Jews for their own genocide. Fair if you don't think so, but you've so far avoided elaborating on your opinion on Islam.
I did warn them, I've linked this warning to you already but I'll do so again
and I didn't know I was meant to voice my opinion on islam? if you wanna know my views dude, just ask lol
Then I'm not sure why you thought I called him a Nazi, I was very clear about what I was accusing him of and apparently you agree (though, on second reading it doesn't look like you said you agreed, just that you warned him, so maybe you don't agree with my accusation?)
Not my fault he picked that particular bigoted apple off that particular tree. (not that picking a bigoted apple makes one a bigot)
I don't see an issue with it, no.
But I also need to be neutral, so I'll leave it to his input if he takes offence to your comparison. I try not to make Nazi comparisons, as it never ends well, you should try the same.
Erm. Well. That's rough, but I can't say I didn't expect it.
silly, I was saying your nazi comment was fine but it's up to them to decide if it's not
1st off, I think the nazi-card is pulled too often in these discussions and it kinda trivialises or cheapens the significance. Saying someone is 'a nazi' or 'acting just like the 'Itler ' really comes off more like a cheap attempt at a veiled insult than a real argument that helps the discussion in even the slightest way.
When I confronted one off my friends who I discuss politics with why she was always so, so eager to make comparisons with the nazi's when discussing Palestine, I guess I got an honest answer when she told me it's because she thinks "that's what would annoy/anger the Israelis the most"... It's like I'm in some bizarro world where no-one remembers why Godwin's Law was one of the internet memes of old, and the joke is no longer on those throwing out that card like it's free (it is) . With the added bonus that it's "just to hurt the jews" lol
So I'm afraid that if you want your discussion forum to rise above a certain level of shit you'll need to sanitize that kind of dumbfuckery somewhat. Not because of 'grave personal insult' but because Godwin.
2ndly, I think moderation should be used very, very sparingly. Like, very. Sometimes people get emotional in political discussions and that should be allowed.
I've actually reported two users myself since Lemmy, but those were for stalking me with a copypaste and someone wishing me to kill myself or something (imagine going against the grain in discussions on Palestine hah)
So I'd say moderation should preferably be used to warn users not to act childish to eachother. We are all children that need to be reminded to act like adults from time to time.
With the above in mind I think it's good this is called out once in a while by a mod, but I don't think it should be more than that. Ffs I'm someone who can enjoy a joke about children starving - I don't require a safe space.
Thirdly, if you're flat out asking me whether I feel like he called me a nazi: yes, I do. As you quoted him he said I was doing the same thing the nazis did. If we ask eachother not to call eachother nazis, or as he said being a nazi, that clearly means to compare someone to a nazi in the intellectual sense. Saying you're only breaking that rule when you say that someone is sitting behind their computer with a nazi uniform on and an authentic membership card of the NSDAP in their pocket is just plain dishonest.
So to conclude: I'd say no shadowban needed but they should be forced to join the "IOF". Plenty of communists in there btw
I agree with everything you've said, very well put.
I hope you hold me responsible to my moderating!