this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2024
109 points (95.0% liked)

Canada

7275 readers
390 users here now

What's going on Canada?

Related Communities

🍁 Meta

🗺️ Provinces / Territories

🏙️ Cities / Local Communities

Sorted alphabetically by city name.

🏒 SportsHockey

Football (NFL): incomplete

Football (CFL): incomplete

Baseball

Basketball

Soccer

💻 Schools / Universities

Sorted by province, then by total full-time enrolment.

💵 Finance, Shopping, Sales

🗣️ Politics

🍁 Social / Culture

Rules

Reminder that the rules for lemmy.ca also apply here. See the sidebar on the homepage: lemmy.ca

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
[email protected]
109
Government Of Canada Labels Palestine Solidarity Organization As A Terrorist Entity (thenorthstar.media)
submitted 2 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
94 comments fedilink hide all child comments
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (11 children)

But that wasn’t what I have in mind when people say things like “Israel is committing war crimes.” That has a much different connotation to it.

It does have a different connotation to it - as if the gov't of Israel was officially allowing and condoning such "reprehensible behavior" as you put it. However, even if it's against official policy, if the majority of troops are ignoring the laws of their own country's gov't and rules of their own country's military to commit this "reprehensible behavior", then a lot of folks will think that country should be accountable. But this can easily morph to the former statement if one isn't careful about nuance.

I actually meant to say ‘prosecute’ rather than ‘perpetrate’. My bad.

Ah, no worries. Though that word is potentially even more confusing - you must mean in the sense of "pursue until finished" as per https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prosecute but it also has the meaning of bringing legal action about. Which would imply that the war is legal, which could be stretched further to imply that it's just. Of course, I'd hesitate to go that far on either point (legal or just).

They think this war is just, as you suggest, retaliation for 10/7. But it isn’t. If it were, it would have been more like 2014 - quick, a couple thousand dead, move on.

I thought the same, actually. I could go as far as agreeing that a simple retaliation is legal and just, but since this is not that...

Many people also don’t understand the big picture.

Clearly I'm still not getting it.

That’s pretty standard in war.

That's kind of the problem, though, isn't it?

They think they are experts on warfare and can make a judgment about the morality of the war

Well though, if not the people, then who can make these judgement? Who is empowered to decide this?

Sinwar decided to pull off this attack when he did because he wanted to put a stop to the Abraham Accords.

Agreed. The evidence I've seen so far agrees with this.

Israel sees an opportunity here to seriously weaken the Iranian regime, which will allow the Accords to proceed.

I support the Accords. But I still worry about innocent civilians - such as Gazans and Palestinians who just want to sit this one out and live their lives, or the hostages taken on 10/7. And if the beef was just with Iran, why are these folks getting caught in the middle? (Of course it's not just Iran, Hamas is based in Gaza, but if one can easily confuse the Iranian regime with Hamas, then perhaps it's easier to confuse Hamas with people from Gaza more generally, which leads to innocent civilians being wrongly treated like hostile military opponents.)

Israel has decided they can’t be tolerated anymore.

And no doubt Israel will win this, but I worry about the human sacrifice required from the innocent.

[–] DarthJon -1 points 2 months ago (10 children)

Here's one thing I can say with absolute certainty: If there was a magical way to eliminate the genocidal threats facing Israel and bring about peace in the Middle East without a single civilian death, Israel would take that option. Israel haters won't accept that because they've been brainwashed to think that Israel is itself a genocidal threat, intent on taking over the Middle East. Which, for many people, is a reflection of some underlying antisemitic sentiments.

such as Gazans and Palestinians who just want to sit this one out and live their lives> I will be honest, though. I'm not sure how many of them would fit in this category. And that's something I'm struggling with because I used to consider myself fairly left-wing and quite tolerant and respectful of diversity. But I just haven't seen much if anything over the past 100 years to suggest that there is a critical mass of Palestinian people who are interested in peaceful coexistence. Quite the opposite, actually. But I think the coming days and weeks following Sinwar's death will be very telling because this does represent the best opportunity the people of Gaza have since Israel's withdrawal in 2005. Will they choose a different future for themselves, one that focuses on hope and peace? Or will they choose to continue the cycle of violence?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (9 children)

Here’s one thing I can say with absolute certainty: If there was a magical way to eliminate the genocidal threats facing Israel and bring about peace in the Middle East without a single civilian death, Israel would take that option

It is my hope that you are right.

such as Gazans and Palestinians who just want to sit this one out and live their lives
I will be honest, though. I’m not sure how many of them would fit in this category.

I don't have exact numbers either, but they do exist, as shown by groups like https://nypost.com/2024/10/14/us-news/jewish-anti-israel-protestors-arrested-after-storming-new-york-stock-exchange/

Also, see https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-oppose-terror-mohammed/index.html and https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2024/0314/Hamas-gambled-with-our-lives-Gazans-are-now-daring-to-speak-out

While not quite answering this question, this survey is still informative, https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2023/12/palestinians-views-oct-7

It shows a majority of Palestinians want a two state solution and a majority do not support Hamas, for example.

the best opportunity the people of Gaza have since Israel’s withdrawal in 2005. Will they choose a different future for themselves, one that focuses on hope and peace? Or will they choose to continue the cycle of violence?

How will they do that? I mean, what are the practical mechanics here for these folks to register their choice? What, even, are the specific options being presented to them?

I don't recall them being asked to vote in a referendum or something similar. Mostly I just see things like this, https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/08/middleeast/gaza-jabalya-idf-shooting-intl/index.html - which suggests a complete absence of choice altogether. I'm not clear on how would even a pro-Israeli Zionist who lives in Gaza and is ethnically Palestinian could get registered as a friend to pro-Israeli forces.

Palestinian people who are interested in peaceful coexistence. Quite the opposite, actually.

Where are you seeing that?

[–] DarthJon -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I don't doubt that there are some out there, all I'm saying is that I haven't seen anything to suggest they're not a small minority. Oppressed people have protested publicly in many other countries but we don't hear anything from the Palestinians against Hamas. Why don't we hear anything about underground Palestinian peace movements? Where are the videos of people denouncing Hamas? They've been decimated by the IDF and now Sinwar is dead, so why aren't people taking to the streets to celebrate?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I don’t doubt that there are some out there, all I’m saying is that I haven’t seen anything to suggest they’re not a small minority.

Some ambiguity here - did you mean folks disliking Hamas (which I provided the survey showing it's at 52%) or folks who like Israel (using folks who dislike the US as a proxy, suggests less than half).

Oppressed people have protested publicly in many other countries but we don’t hear anything from the Palestinians against Hamas

I think this is answered by the C.S.M. article,

“People now are very angry with Hamas, but at the same time they are afraid to express the anger inside them by protesting or holding sit-ins,” notes Wael Mohammad, a civil engineer and longtime Hamas critic in Gaza.
Despite the rising anger, fear persists amid occasional reports of mosque imams or civil society organizers being dragged off and “disappeared” by Hamas for voicing public criticism.

Also,

Why don’t we hear anything about underground Palestinian peace movements?

I mean, we do. From the same C.S.M. article,

Protesters gathering in northern Gaza were shot at by armed men.

Finally,

Where are the videos of people denouncing Hamas?

Maybe an infrastructure issue, they're not able to take videos because of a lack of electrical power - or can't upload them due to a lack of internet connectivity? Not sure. But reporters on the ground are saying that this is indeed happening.

why aren’t people taking to the streets to celebrate?

Aren't they too busy evacuating? As per the orders of the IDF? Except for those in an area with a strong Hamas presence still - those would be too afraid to go out.

Which comes back to my earlier question, even if it really is just a small minority,

I'm not clear on how would even a pro-Israeli Zionist who lives in Gaza and is ethnically Palestinian could get registered as a friend to pro-Israeli forces.

[–] DarthJon -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Some ambiguity here - did you mean folks disliking Hamas (which I provided the survey showing it’s at 52%) or folks who like Israel (using folks who dislike the US as a proxy, suggests less than half).>

I mean Palestinians who are willing to coexist peacefully with Israel. It isn't just about whether they like Hamas or not, it's about their ultimate goals.

The CSM article gives me some hope but I find it very odd that the mainstream media doesn't seem interested in the story. The one article you can find about Gazans resisting Hamas is in the Christian Science Monitor. Bari Weiss (I think it was her) recently told a story about approaching the New York Times with an idea for an article on this very subject because she had done an interview with a Gazan who was speaking out against Hamas and in support of peace with Israel, and the NYT responded, "Nah, we're not interested." Almost as if Western liberal media is suppressing those stories to promote a particular decolonization narrative of the conflict...

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I mean Palestinians who are willing to coexist peacefully with Israel. It isn’t just about whether they like Hamas or not, it’s about their ultimate goals.

Ah, good point. Got your meaning now.

The CSM article gives me some hope

🤞

I find it very odd that the mainstream media doesn’t seem interested in the story.

There are occasional mentions. For example, here's a slightly more mainstream article, https://www.thedailybeast.com/robbed-silenced-and-betrayed-why-gazans-turned-away-from-hamas/

I think overall it just gets fewer clicks and views than the articles that bring up bombs and shootings and deaths. Sorta why we also don't see as much coverage about Israel abandoning the hunt for the hostages, e.g. https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/october-7-anniversary-hostages-betrayal-netanyahu-hamas-hezbollah-20241006.html

the NYT responded, “Nah, we’re not interested.” Almost as if Western liberal media is suppressing those stories to promote a particular decolonization narrative of the conflict…

Time will tell, I suppose. In any case, like all the publishers who turned down Harry Potter, I suspect they're likely to come to deeply regret this (turning the story down).

Bari Weiss (I think it was her) recently told a story about approaching the New York Times

Would love to read more about this if you have a reference or link!

[–] DarthJon -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Would love to read more about this if you have a reference or link!>

It was mentioned on a podcast, but I listen to a lot of them so I can't quite remember which one it was on. I'll have to go back and find it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Ah, no worries and no rush. If you ever do find it, would appreciate a link to the podcast here (and if you know the minute or time marker that'd be even better!), but no big deal if it doesn't appear right away or in the near future, either.

[–] DarthJon -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I was wrong, it was Einat Wilf from the episode in her podcast where she talks about an article she co-wrote with two peace-oriented Arabs shortly after the Abraham Accords were signed. The whole episode is worth a listen, but the particular comment I referenced comes up around 10:15.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Thanks, but do you have a more specific reference to the podcast episode?

I tried to find it, but my searches - https://www.ecosia.org/search?method=index&q=Einat+Wilf+podcast+Abraham+Accords+were+signed - turned up a lot, but I don't think I found the specific one you were referencing.

load more comments (7 replies)
load more comments (7 replies)
load more comments (7 replies)