Socialism

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Question about ownership of the means of production (self.socialism)

submitted 6 months ago by knitwitt to c/[email protected]

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Howdy! I'm new here and was hoping someone might have some insight to a question I've been thinking about for a while:

If I saved up my money and bought a tractor, would it be permissible/ethical to charge others to use it when I didn't need it?

This seems awfully similar to owning the means of production. What if I instead offered to plow their fields for them instead, driving the tractor myself and negotiating fair compensation in exchange?

Sorry if this is basic stuff I'm still learning. 🙏

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Hey man, I understand the confusion and would like to correct some notions. Particularly with some comments here conflating socialism with other ideas.

Socialism is simply workers controlling industry. This may mean many things including each business being controlled by it's individual workers, all industry being collectively owned by society as a whole, or other similar ideas. Personally I believe in the former. As long as the people working in a business control said business this is socialism

What if that industry is the rental of tractors? Well, then all workers involved in this business must control the business. If you are the sole worker, the only one operating this business, then you have sole control.

If you were to, let's say, buy 10 tractors and bring on a receptionist to manage calls and schedule tractor usage well then that receptionist would also own, and control, this business as well. Same goes as it grows. Just as a person selling wheat to a grain mill doesn't need to hold any ownership over the grain mill nor the mill over the farm you selling your tractors usage doesn't need those using it to own your tracker.

Socialism does not necessitate the collective ownership of property nor does it mean industrial rental isn't an option. It only necessitates that the workers control industry. This may mean that each individual business operates as it's own entity, controlled by it's individual workers.

Workers seizing the means of production can mean does not mean, necessarily, society owning it collectively nor does It mean all who use it may have ownership.

I feel that socialism and communism often get conflated. Private ownership of property and the means of production is allowed under socialism, just not ownership over industry. You can personally own and rent out a tractor but you cannot personally own a tractor rental company. Under communism, all is owned collectively

Now, the morals of renting are another thing altogether and entirely detached from socialism. Personally, I think it mostly immoral. Under your circumstance I see no issue selling excess time with a tool you use for the majority of the time. The issue comes when a single renter start to pay entirely for maintenance with excess profits. In my opinion, this should grant them partial ownership. Once more though this is detached from socialism entirely

[–] knitwitt 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Thanks for the comment! I agree that owning ten tractors that I don't personally use VS leasing out my one personal vehicle in the off season feels different, but I'm not exactly clear on where the line is drawn and by what standards it is.

Isn't me being the sole person who can decide who can and can't lease my equipment and at what rate / how much compensation I expect to receive for the privilege of doing so kind of make me a boss already, even if I don't formally employ anyone in a business?

I think we both understand that some form of compensation is fair, as use of the equipment will gradually degrade it's quality, presents an inconvenience to me (no option to use it on the days it's gone), and an increased risk of the tractor becoming inoperable (catching fire, catastrophic failure, falling off a cliff, ect...) all of which as the sole owner of the equipment I am expected to absorb the cost of.

I'm also sure that whomever I'm leasing the equipment out to understands what fair compensation is and won't likely take me up on an offer if I ask for too much. (Half of whatever is harvested with my machine! Mwahaha!)

But I can also see a case where perhaps the equipment is so much more efficient that over time, choosing not to lease from me will result in me being four or five times more productive than you are, creating a big resource disparity between us and giving me extra bargaining power over you.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

To answer the "are you a boss" question the answer is kinda, but yhat's the idea of socialism. Everyones a boss. The idea is against non-workers owning the industry, and ensures workers have control over it. If you see an issue with your suggested practice I understand but I'll clarify it' not anti-socialist. At your scale, with the other options available, I can only see your option being a better one.

I think you see the possible issues inherent in renting as well as the coercion in it. There's certainly ways in which one can exploit the relationship. As long as you're not doing so however there's no moral flaw. In fact, on an environmental note you're likely helping. If you're undercutting the massive industry and treat those who rent from you well you're doing them a kindness.

Of course, one can do evil here, but understanding that and actively making effort not to do so is a good place to be in. All economic activity can cause harm no matter the system. As a socialist, I believe that when more people with a stake in the work have control over industry the outcome is better