this post was submitted on 03 Aug 2023
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ErgoMechKeyboards

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Ergonomic, split and other weird keyboards

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Keep it ergo

Posts must be of/about keyboards that have a clear delineation between the left and right halves of the keyboard, column stagger, or both. This includes one-handed (one half doesn't exist, what clearer delineation is that!?)

i.e. no regular non-split¹ row-stagger and no non-split¹ ortholinear²

¹ split meaning a separation of the halves, whether fixed in place or entirely separate, both are fine.
² ortholinear meaning keys layed out in a grid

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Help me pick a keyboard (self.ergomechkeyboards)
submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by YellowAfterlife to c/ergomechkeyboards
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Some context: I write code and play videogames, primarily on Windows and currently on a Logitech K860, which I've been thinking of replacing with something that is less wide and/or two-piece. In looking into this I have discovered that there's quite a number of keyboards that fit my criteria, so I could use some help figuring out what's more likely to be a good choice.

What do I desire:

  • US-like QWERTY layout
    (LShift next to Z, horizontal or otherwise reasonable-sized Enter)
  • TKL (or otherwise not too wide)
  • Split
    (ideally two-part, but the classic 15(?)-degree triangle in the middle is also okay)
  • Probably a normal staggered layout (I touch-type, but it's not strict home-row typing)
  • Normal arrow keys
    (read: separate keys not requiring an Fn press/layer switch; Up-arrow being above Down-arrow)
  • Home/End keys next to arrow keys, or accessible via Fn+arrow
    (or a couple useless keys next to arrow keys that could be remapped)
  • A Delete key somewhere in that area
    (or another useless key that can be remapped)
  • Digit keys
  • A Windows/Option key

Nice to have:

  • F-keys (to use for keyboard shortcuts)
  • Tenting
  • (detachable?) palm supports
  • Wired connection or optional cable.

Things that don't mean too much:

  • Lighting
  • Key labels and their durability
  • High-end macro recording (key codes can be remapped on PC side)

Misc:

  • I've not owned enough mechanical keyboards to have a switch preference beyond "shouldn't take much force to press / shouldn't be too loud".
  • I can assemble and disassemble devices, but probably wouldn't find time to solder.
  • Not particularly limited in terms of budget - been a few years since I've last got a fancy keyboard.
  • I'm used to low-profile keyboards, though it's more about travel time and how much the keys poke out of the keyboard than actual key cap height.

What else I've used that's worth noting:

  • MSI GK-701 (non-split)
    Bought to see what was the fuss with Cherry MX brown switches, but couldn't get used to how tall this thing was (~4cm).
  • Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Desktop
    Very good keyboard layout, somewhat stiff (?) keys and clicky F-keys.
  • HAVIT HV-KB390L (non-split)
    A pretty pleasant TKL low-profile keyboard with Kailh white switches that I used for a little while before going back to split keyboards.
  • Logitech K860
    Better keys than Sculpt, but full-sized.
  • Perrixx/MoKo/etc. Foldable Keyboard (aka B.O.W. keyboard)
    It's a pocket comedy split keyboard. Not very high-quality, but beats typing on the phone, you know?
  • Logitech K280e (non-split)
    A curious low-profile, quiet (rubber-domed?) office keyboard that I use with secondary devices.

Considerations so far

Sculpt-likes (one-piece ~75%):

  • Perixx PERIDUO-606
    A mouse wheel in the middle?
  • Perixx PERIBOARD-613 B
    This one has a 4:1 Enter key. I think it's for people that like their RShift keys.
  • Perixx PERIBOARD-335 (TKL)
    A mass-market-ish keyboard with mechanical switches? That's neat. Not hot swap, but still!
  • Lenovo Go Wireless Split
    Apparently Lenovo made a conventional TKL split keyboard once.
  • BC Split Ergonomic
    Seems like an almost 1:1 replica of Sculpt layout, except for distribution of F-keys. UK layout only, I think?
  • X-Bows Knight
    Column-staggered, has a 2x2 Backspace key, and the most obnoxious website I've seen as of late.
  • Truly Ergonomic 229 Mechanical Keyboard
    A similar design to X-Bows, but with a more symmetrical layout. -Truly Ergonomic CLEAVE
    A slightly different design with a handful of large keys for your thumbs.

Two-piece (pre-assembled):

  • Goldtouch V2 (>75%)
    A seemingly normal rubber-domed keyboard.
  • Kinesis Freestyle2/Pro/Edge (>75%)
    A similar layout. I guess this one made it big because every other split keyboard post I find includes a sponsored listing from Kinesis.
    And what's the difference between these? Switches, programmable buttons, and lighting?
  • Matias Ergo Pro (>75%)
    That's a quirky layout, but technically has all the buttons.
  • Cloud Nine ErgoTKL (>75%)
    A fairly Sculpt-like layout with a couple extra buttons.
  • Core Mechanics Project: 0001 (>75%)
    Pretty good layout and a couple macro keys too. A clean look.
  • Perixx PERIBOARD-524B (75%)
    A perfectly normal two-piece layout.
  • Goldtouch Go!2
    The wireless/scissor edition of the seemingly normal keyboard, now with a couple sacrifices and navigation keys on the left.
  • R-Go Split Break
    This is a different kind of a compact comedy keyboard, except it's a wired PC keyboard.

Two-piece (kits):

  • Mistel MD770 (75%)
    An (almost) perfectly normal layout that's split into two halves.
    650L seems similar sans the f-key row.
  • YMDK Split 64/75/84
    All QMK-based I believe?
  • Keychron Q11 QMK (75%-ish)
    Also a pretty normal layout featuring two knobs.
  • Keebio collections (65%..>75%)
    I've not even heard of some of these switches before, but Cepstrum looks intriguing.
  • Sinc R3 (>75%)

One-piece (kits):

  • Keychron Q8
    That's not how you curve a keyboard.
  • Feker Alice 80 (65%)
    A very sensible layout sans the relocated Win-key.
top 21 comments
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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Want to start off by saying that I really appreciate all the research you did (and relayed to us) while on your search. This helps us not just recommend a bunch of shit you've already looked at. A lot of the things you've listed as requirements somewhat disqualify a lot of the keyboards we usually see/use around these parts.

While reading through your post, the Cepstrum is what stood out to me. As far as I know, the kit only requires soldering the hotswap sockets if the full price is a lil too rich for you. It uses Kailh choc v1 switches but I don't recommend the ones that you can get bundled with it. Silvers are my go-to choc, and a lot of people in the ergo space like the purpz/pinks because they're really light.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Which disqualified keyboards would you have otherwise recommended?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Corne is probably the top of my list for anyone that wants to get into ergo. They can be picked up from a lot of places and I think it has more users than any other ergo board, so finding support should be easy.

The Sofle is another popular board that would probably work well due to having more keys.

The Helix is a popular ortho split option.

If you're lookin' for something that is packed full of features, the Ximi from fingerpunch basically has it all.

[–] YellowAfterlife 2 points 1 year ago

Thank you for your advice, and also Sofle looks neat - for a 58-key keyboard it doesn't feel like it has sacrificed too much.

Ximi looks amusing - I guess this is the point where you need 3-4 layers to make proper use of it, but two trackballs are quite a treat. I do occasionally use a trackball as a scroll ~~wheel~~ ball in my existing setup.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Check out the quefrency 65 rev 5 by keeb.io. It seems to match your criteria pretty well. For palm/wrist rests I use two purple squishies

[–] YellowAfterlife 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Thank you - I've been eyeing the various keeb.io models (Cepstrum / Quefrency / Sinc / KBO-5000), and is there more to be aware of beyond layout? Off-hand I can only tell that switches are hotswappable on all of these except KBO-5000, and that Quefrency / Sinc have an option for 3x1.25u / 2.25u / 1.25u on the bottom left row, which is nice.

And as for the squishies, that's a delight

[–] Wimads 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If you want to keep it at row staggered, Dygma Raise is probably a good place to start. It will keep it fairly traditional, but split, with a thumb cluster, and programmabe; which are imho the 3 most fundamental ergonomic improvements to make.

[–] YellowAfterlife 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's a neat keyboard - doesn't have arrow keys, but their upcoming Defy keyboard has a rather impressive number of side keys and thumb keys. I'll keep this in mind.

[–] Wimads 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Once you start to explore the possibilities of programming a keymap, you'll quickly find out that a lot of functions don't really require dedicated keys. Using a thumb key as a layer modifier, can bring your arrow keys right under your finger tips on the home row, like on I J K L. The reason you see so many tiny keyboards (36-40 keys) on here, is a consequence of optimizing custom keymaps; more keys simply become redundant (everyone will find some kind of sweet spot here, 36 keys isn't for everyone). Something like the Raise or Defy is a good place to start experimenting with that, with minimal barrier due to the familiar layout. I do recommend picking something with a thumb cluster at minimum, because that will really open up a lot of possibilities and flexibility in experimenting with your layout.

[–] YellowAfterlife 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I ended up getting a Sofle since it turns out that a few people assemble these locally, and I have noticed a very certain caveat about these little keyboards: the Latin alphabet fits well on the default layer, but my native tongue doesn't - ї is usually made by pressing the key that makes ] on the US layout, but that key is now beyond the right edge of the keyboard. Perhaps I'll get a custom one (with an extra column of keys on each side) made later if I don't figure out a keymap that makes sense.

[–] Wimads 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Good choice! I'm sure you can figure out a keymap, though it may take a bit of trial and error, but that's the fun part of this hobby ;)

[–] nyar 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I bought this a while back and I'm very happy with it. https://ergodox-ez.com/

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Been eyeing this for a while. Just picked one up.

[–] YellowAfterlife 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I've seen this one, but I'd need to find a local sample to verify that I can use it - per post, I have non-too-strict typing habits and I'm afraid that an ortholinear[-ish] layout will be weeks-long despair with me missing keys.

For example, I already had a habit of holding my hands at an angle prior to using split keyboards, but this also meant that I was usually pressing Y key with my left index finger, which, on Sculpt, meant that I was now either typing a T or hitting my finger on the edge of the keyboard.

[–] bitwyze 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I got a Moonlander ~1-1.5 years ago (made by the same company that does the Ergodox). I'll say that yes, there is an initial slowdown in typing speed as you learn ortholinear, but I find it to be so much more comfortable than the traditional staggered layout. I broke a lot of my bad typing habits similar to your Y->T mixup.

I think it's also made me a better typist on traditional keyboards as well - I mainly use my Moonlander, but will need to use a traditional keyboard 1-2 times a day when running meetings in conference rooms. It did take me maybe 3 weeks to get up to ~70% of my normal typing speed, and then the last 30% came from me tweaking my layers and building the layout that's comfortable to me.

I'm constantly iterating to make it more and more comfortable to use common keys (just last week, I changed my layout because I use the -> and => key sequences a lot when writing code, but I still need to tweak it more). Being able to change keymappings is a must for any keyboard, IMO.

Thumb clusters are 👌👌👌

[–] YellowAfterlife 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

So what do people do with thumb clusters?

In my current setup, I have a little tool to have remapped RAlt act as a faux mod layer (so that I can quickly enter symbols like · — ➜ or have two-key shortcuts that don't conflict with anything), but most of the objective improvement comes from good auto-completion, snippets, and editor features (e.g. multi-cursors can be a blessing to both edit a bunch of lines at once and to create N constructs out of a list of names/signatures).

[–] Wimads 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Your pinkies are weak, yet they have the most keys to handle on a traditional board. Your thumbs are strong, yet only operate one key on a traditional board.

Thumb clusters are used in many different ways, but most basic: put your modifiers there (particularly shift and ctrl), your pinkies will thank you ;) When you go for a smaller layout, layer modifiers become more relevant as well, which typically are put in thumb clusters as well. (but when you go down to small layouts, there is a whole deep rabbithole of layout design to get into).

[–] bitwyze 2 points 1 year ago

On my Moonlander, I have:

  • Left
    • Top piano key: press for space, hold for alt
    • Middle piano key: Windows key
    • Bottom piano key: hold for layer shift to make my right split a numpad
    • Red "any" key: move to virtual desktop left
  • Right
    • Top piano key: backspace
    • Middle piano key: enter
    • Bottom piano key: tap for one shot to VSCode macro layer
    • Red "any" key: move to virtual desktop right
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I use 2 thumbs on each side, and they're layer changing keys when held and backspace, tab, enter, space when tapped. My mods (shift, ctrl, etc) are under my home row when held (tap D for D and hold for shift) mirrored on each half.
At that point it's getting very customized but I've found it to be extremely comfortable. As other people have said, you'll find what works for you, but a thumb cluster will open a lot of doors for you I think.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

The only down side is that it's not staggered layout.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I have a Matias Ergo Pro that I'm probably going to sell. It was an impulse buy, I didn't really do any research. I don't like the switches. They are too squishy for me. I feels like I'm just mashing keys and I can't type very smooth. It was my first split/ergo board and I love that aspect. Just ordered the ErgoDox as a second.