this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2024
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Fediverse

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A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, KBin, etc).

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tl;dr: Be excellent to each other, do something constructive here?

I'm not sure anymore where the Threadiverse is headed. (The Threadiverse being this threaded part of the Fediverse, i.e. Lemmy, MBin, PieFed, ...)
In my time here, I've met a lot of nice people and had meaningful conversations and learned lots of things. At the same time, it's always been a mixed bag. We've always had quite some argumentative people here, trolls, ... I've seen people hate on and yell at each other, and do all kinds of destructive things. My issue with that is: Negative behavior is disproportionately affecting the atmosphere. And I'd argue we have nowhere enough nice behavior to even that out.

I don't see Lemmy grow for quite some time now. Seems it's now leveling off at a bit less that 50k monthly active users. And I don't see how that'd change. I'm missing some clear vision/idea of where we want to be headed. And I miss an atmosphere that makes people want to join or stay here, of all of the places on the internet. The saying is: "If you don't go forwards you go backwards". I'm not sure if this applies... At least we're not shrinking anymore.

And I'm always unsure if the tone and atmosphere here changes subtly and gradually. I've always disagreed with a few dynamics here. But lately it feels like we're on the decline, at least to me. I occasionally keep an eye on the votes on my comments. And seems I'm getting fewer of them. Sometimes I reply to a post and not a single person interacts. Even OP seems to have abandoned their post moments after writing it. And also for nuanced and longer replies, I regularly don't get more than one or two upvotes. I think that used to be a bit better at some point. And I see the same thing happening with other peoples' comments. So it's not just me writing low-quality comments. What does work is stating simple truths. I regularly get some incoming votes with those. But my vision of this place isn't spreading simple truths, but have proper and meaningful discussions, learn things and new perspectives or just mingle with people or talk. But judging by the votes I observe, that isn't appreciated by the community here.

Another pet peeve of mine is the link aggregator aspect of Lemmy. I'd say at least 80% of Lemmy is about dumping some political (or tech) news articles. Lots of them don't generate any engagement. Lots of them are really low-effort. OP just dumps something somewhere, no body text added, no info about what's interesting about it. And people don't even read those articles. They just read the title and react (emotionally) to that. In the end probably neither OP nor the audience read the article and it's just littering the place. Burying and diminishing other, meaningful content. (With that said: There are also nice (news) discussions going on at the same time. And Lemmy is meant to be a link aggregator. It's just that my perception is: it's skewed towards low quality, low engagement and random noise.)

A few people here also don't really like political debate. And there's no escape from it here on Lemmy since so much revolves around that. And nowadays politics is about strong opinions, emotions and emotional reactions. And often limited to that. The dynamics of Lemmy reinforce the negative aspect of that, because the time when you're most incentivized to reply or react is, when it triggers some strong emotion in you, for example you strongly disagree with a comment and that makes you want to counter it and write your own opinion underneath. If you agree, you don't feel a strong emotion and you don't reply. And the majority of users seems to also forget to upvote in that case, as I lined out earlier. And we also don't write nuanced answers, dissect complex things and examine it from all angles. That's just effort and it's not as rewarding for the brain to do that as it is pointing out that someone is wrong. So it just fosters an atmosphere of being argumentative.

Prospect

I think we have several ways of steering the community:

  1. Technology: Features in the software, design choices that foster good behavior.
  2. Moderation: Give toxic people the boot, or delete content that drags down the place. Following: What remains is nice people and not adverse content.
  3. The community

I'd say 1 and 2 go without saying. (Not that everything is perfect with those...) But it really boils down to 3: The community. This is a fairly participatory place. We are the ones shaping the tone and atmosphere. And it's our place. It's kind of our obligation to care for it if we want to see it go somewhere. Isn't it?

So what's your vision of this place? Do you have some idea on where you'd like it to go? Practical ideas on how to achieve it?
Do you even agree with my perception of the dynamics here, and the implications and conclusions I came up with?

(page 2) 33 comments
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[–] autonomoususer 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Ban 'moderators' who don't even follow their own rules, like being civil, on large 'default' communities.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

What I don't want to do is pointing at people and distributing blame. We maybe need to do that, too. But that shouldn't take away from each and everyone of us asking »What can I, *myself*, do to make this a better place.«. That's what I'd like to focus on with this post. So I'm not saying you're right or wrong. But I consider that out of scope for this discussion.

[–] autonomoususer 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)
  1. Start new communities to replace large 'default' ones and follow our own rules when moderating them.

  2. Make platform and protocol changes to further decentralise power.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Sorry, the best I can do is passive aggressiveness and righteous indignation

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I think if you want Mods/Devs/Admins to have better impact, they actually need to have funding. People focus on funding hosting costs, but everyone seems to be assuming that Mods/Devs should be volunteers.

If you're not donating in some way to the instances/software you use...please start.

As an example, lemmy.world is run by https://fedihosting.foundation, who also run mastodon.world and many other instances. AFAICT the whole group takes in a little over $1000 a month through Patreon/ko-fi. That's barely enough to cover hosting costs for so many huge instances, much less compensate the several dozen volunteers.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I would question your focus on growth. Yes, we all want this place to succeed. But do we really want this unlimited growth like Facebook, Reddit and all those other companies? Small communities are great, they give you a connection between users, they spark friendships and great discourse. Those are great. Yes, they are smaller than those multimillion user subreddits, but we've all seen those big subreddits slowly burning down. Dying to bots, to marketing spam, to low effort, popular comments, to reposts, to karma farming, to US politics. We've seen subreddit after subreddit dying to moderator burnout - because big subs are really hard to moderate, people will burn out. They are sacrificing their free time to deal with trolls, shills, putins guys and receive no compensation for that.

So maybe ... let's don't replicate Reddit? Let's focus on creating small, helpful communities and people will come.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I agree. I must admit my title was a bit clickbaity. Growth - meaning growing in user count - wasn't my intention. I think it'll be a result, sure. But I agree with you (and the Lemmy developers) in that growing (above all) isn't what Lemmy is about. And it's not healty anyways. And I think I didn't include any reasoning or suggestions in my text that'd propose doing it.

What we'd need is the communities be at a healty (and useful) engagement level to allow having a conversation in the first place. Well, and I occasionally keep an eye at such metrics, because for example seeing something stagnate or decline could mean there is an issue, somewhere. I think I mentioned that in the post. But it doesn't necessarily mean we have to push that metric. It's tackling the underlying issue (if there's any) that's the important thing to do (in my opinion).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Points that could improve the 1. point "Technology":

  • Make it possible to follow single users. Often I see some high quality content by users posted on communities to get drowned out by low effort posts ... Though on average high quality users post to high quality communities. Make it possible to follow/subscribe to a single user, making this place more like twitter without the character limit. A similar point about singular users carrying Lemmys usefulness on the back was made by [email protected]
  • Introduce hashtags, to make it simpler to follow/ search interests. At the moment I do not see the niche communities I see on reddit thrive but broad categories that are hard to break up: Technology, Politics. While on reddit you would see multiple large active communities/bubbles related to politics with widely differing ideologies. This may be fixed by time and scale though...
  • Since every user is tainted by the server they log in to, it is easy to assume the ideology because he joined server lemmy.X .... make a way to hide that information, idk if that is technically compatible with lemmys design though ....
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