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Estonia considers closing its border with Russia (kyivindependent.com)

submitted 10 months ago by [email protected] to c/world

101 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Estonia announced that the country may be forced to close its border crossing points with Russia due to increased migration pressures, Estonian Police and Border Guard announced on Feb. 13.

"In recent weeks, Russia has deliberately directed to the Estonian border groups of foreigners lacking the legal right to enter the European Union," the statement reads. "If these activities continue, we will be forced to close border crossing points to protect national security and public order, as has already been done in Finland due to migration pressure."

The Estonian government has noted an influx of migrants and asylum seekers from Russia over recent months.

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[–] [email protected] -2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You’ll note that at no point did I claimed that you said turning them away is in their best interests. But it is reasonable to assume that you where making a claim that closing borders is because Estonia can't help them and not because it is not in Estonia's interests. When you give arguments about not being able to help while discussing border politics, it is reasonable to assume that you are giving a reason for that policy and not just talking for unrelated reason. So if the reason is that borders cant open because you cant help them then borders are closed for allegedly their own good as they will not be helped in Estonia. If it is in their interest to open the borders then that is helping them and therefor Estonia can help. Of course it isn't much help if you are simply not hurting them by trapping them inside their country, but still. When you frame a comment to be about helping them, it is obviously implied that you are concerned with their wellbeing and therefor their interests.

Simply as you used different wording when you told me that I said that you claimed turning them away is in their best interest, so did I. Communication is based on some assumptions and framing things from your point of view, it hard to communicate otherwise.

Also, I am ignoring that you don't have resources for helping them, because it is simply not a point of the article. We are talking about not letting them come in, not necessarly do they need help. Maybe they can catch a plain, maybe some do have Visas, it is not impossible. And when talking about human lives during war, we should be more willing to help.

Besides, I understand that there are a lot of already housed migrants and that is great. But also if they have been there for sometime and some migrants haven't been there at all, would be good to help those already housed reloacate to rest of EU so there is more space for new migrants. After all, I am certain that the rest of EU will more gladly help Ukranin migrants than Russian ones, so focusing on helping them is good. If really the argument is simply not being able to help and etc. The problem is that all of these things are perfectly reasonably solved and that it is clear that intentions aren't really economical, but political.

[–] Bimfred 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

First off...

So I have no idea how you can pretend that you are doing them a service by actauly actively stopping them from making their own choice to go where they can for search of better life.

Now, perhaps it's creative interpretation on my part, but it came across as you implying I'm arguing for their best interests. Apologies, if that's not the case.

Secondly, whether you like it or not, there's more to consider than the lives of these refugees or any that would follow. National security and the security of the Schengen zone. The very likely tensions and conflicts between the refugees already housed here and the newly arrived Russians. I assure you, when emotions run high, it won't matter if everyone involved are innocent civilians. And our own history of Russia attempting to use the local Russian population as a weapon. That was under Putin's rule, I don't find it unreasonable to think he'd do it again.

And finally, I'm not letting you ignore the inconvenient fact that we don't have the resources. It may not have been the point of the article, but it's most definitely a factor in the decision. Because the reality is that these people would need help, because practically everyone who was rich enough to snag plane tickets, or had VISAs, and wanted to leave has already left. They did that over the first year of the war. These people need housing, food and healthcare, none of which they can provide for themselves. The reality is that if we let them in, we have a sharp spike in homelessness. Soon after, a spike in people needing healthcare. Around the same time, a rise in crime, as some of the refugees are unwilling or unable to get jobs. Followed by another spike in people needing healthcare. And during all that, families freezing to death in the streets. But I suppose all of that is fine if they're searching for a better life, yes?

Just out of curiosity, where are you from?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 10 months ago

Why mention that you dont have the resources if you are not pretending that you would be for helping them if you could. It is just an excuse to try and hide the fact that you care more about one population then another simply on the basis on their nationality. I hope you understand how racist that is. Not that I accept the notion that civilian unarmed refugees are somehow a threat to the Schengen zone and a "National security", which is most common anti-imigrant rethoric, but how is that ever a higher priority then lives of an entire nation of civilans.

"there’s more to consider than the lives of these refugees or any that would follow" of course, comfort and stolen wealth of the EU is top priority, Lives of human beings are always secondary to profit.

"Just out of curiosity, where are you from?" I know better then to tell a racist where I am from, so they can somehow make assumtions based on my nationality.