this post was submitted on 24 Aug 2023
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Antiwork
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A community for those who want to end work, are curious about ending work, want to get the most out of a work-free life, want more information on anti-work ideas and want personal help with their own jobs/work-related struggles.
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Essential Reads
Start here! These are probably the most talked-about essays on the topic.
- The Abolition of Work by Bob Black (1985) | listen
- On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber (2013) | listen
- In Praise of Idleness by Bertrand Russell (1932) | listen
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You're just repeating irrelevant basic theory that everybody already knows, which has nothing to do with your particular assertion about rich people spending their money, while merely pretending it's relevant so you sound like you know what you're talking about. And you're doing so entirely anecdotally, without any substantive principles, math, reasoning, or empirical basis to back it up, while talking down as if you're spitting some great truth.
Oh, and you're conflating technological progress with supply and demand, which, while technically related (in that it can be affected by supply and demand, like everything else), is not governed by the same laws, is not the same topic, and is in no way guaranteed (...and is not prominently featured in, like, any serious/major school of macroeconomic thought). Oh, and you're conflating primary sector output limits as the sole possible bottleneck for productive capacity, which at no point did I assert, and which is plainly ridiculous. And frankly, I don't feel like wasting the energy to pay attention in the rest of your tautological and bloviating rambling to check what else you're mixing up, but from a quick skim, it looks like you also try to completely change your narrative from "demand" to "technology", while twisting semantics to pretend you were never talking in the first place about what you were actually saying.
Frankly, if you can't even explain that weird part where you just ignored and directly contradicted basic monetary theory and its constituent mathematical laws while insulting me personally, I don't know why you would expect anything else you say about this to be taken seriously.
I linked to— What, five pretty rigorously studied basic economic and mathematical theorems, principles, formulae, etc., so far, to substantiate everything I've said. And you haven't even addressed a single one of them— Instead, you've just been blindly bloviating about "how the economy works", insultingly calling things "stunningly wrong", and ranting about "how long [you] can keep telling" me about something where you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Read the fucking manual. I even linked you to some encyclopaedic summaries. And stop talking about something you clearly have no idea about and have zero interest to actually engage in good faith on or do any serious referencing on, as if you're some authority on it.
This is actually a subject on which my knowledge is quite incomplete, and I would have liked to be exposed to more, if you had anything to offer other than the economic equivalent of confused and angry fairy tales. But I think my disgust at this interaction now outweighs anything I might have hoped to gain from it.
This is useless.
Oh shiiiiiit someone went to www.dictionary.com
"bloviating" lol
You're just linking to shit that you have zero understanding of. You clearly have not studied any of this, even the "econ 101" that I mentioned. I don't know why you're arguing so hard in favor of this position that you've cooked up solely in your own brain.
You're seriously suggesting that efficiency increases don't feature prominently in any serious school of macroeconomic thought.
You don't even know what "anecdotally" means.
I don't think you're trolling, per se, but something akin to compulsive lying. You're saying things that are completely wrong, though plausible sounding to someone who's never considered the topic in-depth, and covering up these untruths with a flurry of five dollar words...why? To save face? You're linking to stuff that's moderately advanced economics but is only understandable in the context of a basic understanding of how the economy works, which you refuse to acknowledge.
For example, Pareto efficiency. If you just googled stuff that you want to grab to support your core idea of "there are limited resources and increasing one thing requires decreasing another thing", then the overview/description/summary sounds, initially, like something akin to what you're talking about. ie, "Pareto efficiency is when it is impossible to make one party better off without making another party worse off." Cool, you googled, you found a thing, you copied, you pasted. Great.
But you fail to understand that Pareto efficiency is a snapshot of a given economic sector (or economy). It's not an eternal state. If a factory produces widgets and bobs, it may reach pareto efficiency producing 50 widgets and 10 bobs per hour. A technological improvement may come along that enables it to produce 65 widgets and 15 bobs per hour, still in a state of pareto efficiency. It's not saying that the factory can only EVER produce 50 widgets and 10 bobs. It's saying that at that moment with the given possibilities, 50 widgets and 10 bobs is the maximal output. It's a constant moving target. Pareto efficiency does not deal with the fact that profit incentive will drive research into more efficient production of widgets and bobs. It is not a way of explaining the circulation of money within an economy, or the function of investment vs savings.
So no, I'm not going to address each of the things you linked, because you don't understand them. You're just grabbing stuff with verbiage that seems to support your core argument. You're like a dog latching on to the words "treat" and "walk".
What I'm trying to do is explain to you the central ideas underpinning economic theory. Not a specific theory, but ALL economic theory. Your core premise is incorrect, so your understanding of different theories dealing with different aspects of the economy will be incorrect. There's no point discussing those things because we haven't gotten past step zero: the fundamentals of how an economy works.
Moved goalposts:
What you were originally talking about was higher velocity and demand directly and immediately stimulating higher production in presumably linear proportion with no downsides. Double the velocity, get double the goods, which is just plainly nonsense.
What you're now pretending you were always talking about is higher demand stimulating technological change which then later increases the efficiency of the economy, allowing more goods to be produced overall. Double the demand, maybe 50 years later get 15% more goods, which is not the same.
If you had started out with the second position, then that would be mostly fine. "Rich people should spend their money in ways that will stimulate innovation to benefit us all later on" is somewhat reasonable! But you didn't go with that. At first, you didn't even specify, and then you went with this weird take implying a much more direct relationship than is physically and technologically possible between velocity and output. So naturally, I responded to that, the near-term monetary effects of which would likely not be good for most people.
Regurgitating irrelevant basics everybody already knows:
Insults:
I love how blatant it is that you had to look this word up, and then had to project that onto me (thrice, in five sentences!) to protect your ego.
Delusional grandstanding:
"I'm not even going to try to defend my point because you're too stupid to understand it, so instead I'm just going to yell at you about irrelevant-but-technically-correct stuff to save face with insults thrown in every now and then."
Lmfao.
Bullshit:
I debated whether that's the right word. Anecdotal evidence is usually at least factual, just not relevant or representative. Your various allegories aren't even consistently factual. But the basic fallacy fits, of simply telling a story with little to substantiate or even define its implications.
MV=PQ, andVdoesn't usually changeQ. If you wanna go with a different or longer-term perspective, then that's fine, but you have to qualify it or clarify it.Productive capacity has bottlenecks. If you want your point to be that more available capital can stimulate technological change to increase it, then that's fine. But that's not what you were saying, until I showed your original point was not defendable.
At this point, you've demonstrated specialization, but not technological advancement.
At the point where I linked to Pareto efficiency, I literally was talking about a snapshot of the economy in any given moment.
But it is also the equilibrium (or, more accurately, the equilibria), roughly, in a functioning economy. This is one of the other things I referenced you to, which you've conveniently decided is beneath your all-knowing-ness to stoop to the level of acknowledging.
Strawmans:
…This one, which you keep repeating, is especially dishonest, because my original reference to "stealing the entire pie" wasn't even about productive capacity at first, but was replying to your opinion that private philanthropy absolves systemic inequality.
I claimed, as a rough rule, that they cannot be simply magic'd into existence by monetary policy/effects alone, which is what you were suggesting.
I don't know what to make of how you've now folded the entire fields of nuclear physics, electrical engineering, demography, etc. under "Money Good!". Like everything in a market economy, they're affected by and require an appropriate degree of investment. That doesn't mean you can just dump more cash into the economy to get miracles back.
You're seriously pretending raw materials, and not, you know, labour or tech for processing those materials, are the main bottleneck for productive capacity.
(And yes, capital also counts, and technology can indeed advance. But it's nowhere near the all-consuming force you're portraying it as, nor guaranteed.)
The sad part is that the basic point you now seem to be reaching for, underneath all the bullshit and vitriol, isn't even wrong. If you're willing to take the immediate social and monetary chaos of trillions of dollars of "rich people"'s money being dumped into and taking over the system, then sure, maybe in the long run it might stimulate technological advancement that will benefit everybody.
But you're so cocky, aggressive, and incapable of forming a coherent point that it's taken you thousands of words to fail to explain that, while apparently directly contradicting both economic theory and the basic math it's defined in, all while making an ass of yourself.
…Block, and move on, perhaps. Or just ignore, maybe .... It's hard for me to understand that sometimes people don't use words to examine the truth, but instead use words to disrupt it for their own ego, pride, or power.... Well, fuck this.
And suddenly, I'm less afraid of LLMs, because no matter how delusional and insidious and oblivious those statistical inferences may be, I'm reminded again that humans like you are already way worse.