this post was submitted on 27 Nov 2024
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Pronouns. I get that they matter a lot to some people, and of course it's super annoying (if not worse) to be referred to in the wrong way, but I find it unreasonable to demand being referred to something outside of the gender binary, simply because that's the way language works.
I am aware that English has used "they" for a person of unknown gender for ages, but for one, I don't think it's something that you should demand people call you when they actually know your gender, but also I really hate that this is making its way into other languages like my own, that has never had this convention. Inventing entirely new pronouns is just ridiculous, I have a hard enough time to remember your name.
I am also aware that language evolves, but this is not evolution, it's forced, and if one group of people can try to force a change they prefer, I'm as much in my right to resist it if I don't like it.
People are super passionate about this though and in fifty years I'm sure I'll be seen as a fossil for not getting with the times now - in fact I'm sure certain people see me like this now.
I know a few trans or nonbinary folks. They either go by he, she, or they. I have yet to meet someone who doesn't. Then again I live in a weird progressive rural community.
But if someone asks me to refer to them a particular way, sure what not? It means more to them than it means to me.
And it costs you nothing. :)
Until you're that rural person dropped into a convention center with people wearing name tags with their preferred pronoun and almost no understanding of how to actually use those pronouns appropriately.
For the most part, it's amazing how seldom pronouns actually get used in referring to any specific person. Even if Bob uses he/she/they relatively often, the he/she/they being referred to is a specific person and the number of times Bob uses the word 'she' when referring to Sally is related entirely to how often Bob talks about Sally, specifically with other people. That might literally be never/once a year/once in his lifetime/etc.
If the vast majority of the time Bob talks about other people, they've not mentioned any preference, it's understandable if he struggles when the need comes up, mid conversation, to substitute a 'they/zhe/xer' where he has only every used he/she (they still sounds plural to most people), and to remember off the top of your head a pronoun you've only seen on a name tag one time, roughly amounts to remembering everyone's name and their hometown. Of course the impact is lessened by the fact that you will rarely have to refer to some specific person in third person when you don't even remember their name, and in that case 'they' is kind of a fallback anyway.
Perhaps an undesirable outcome is that if the pronoun is a hurdle to overcome, it's easier for Bob just not to bring Sally up at all, a possibly unfortunate result because it might have been an interesting conversation that is now simply avoided.
Okay, first of all, if you counted how many pronouns you use, per day, it would likely surprise you. Second, it once again, costs you nothing to use someone's pronouns after they've been identified to you. If you're arguing "it's not fair to be yelled at for something you aren't aware of" then that's completely reasonable.
If your argument is "I don't want to be bothered learning 3 new words in a language I've spoken my entire life," then I have no sympathy for you, and you're at best just someone who's disrespectful to those they (WOW I used they as a singular, THAT was hard, cost me $400 to write that just now) don't feel deserve respect. It's that simple.
If someone introduces themselves as Jennifer, and you immediately start calling them Jen/Jenny/Etc, and they ask tell you it's Jennifer, do you double down because, well, Jen is just easier, Jen is just easier, I'll just stop bringing up Jen.
And then you sit there, while explaining this to me, and act like what you're describing isn't blatant discrimination. The exact same "LoGiC" that has been used to discriminate against "difficult women," y'know, the ones that were sexually harassed in the workplace for decades.
How did the News react to women standing up against harassment and discrimination in the workplace? Oh, that's right, they said things like, "Well, now men aren't going to promote women into managerial positions because they'll be afraid of being sued! Now men can't even have conversations with their coworkers without fear of reprimand! Won't anyone think of how the poor men feel?!"
Notice a pattern? It's always the oppressed asking too much, because they don't understand the undo burden of checks notes for this discussion not harassing women and, wow, big ask here, using the names and preferred pronouns of your coworkers.
You're right, I didn't think how hard that must be on the average person, completely unreasonable ask on the part of the LGBTQ+ community, next they'll want equal rights under the law! Disgusting. ๐
Just a guess here, but are you that desperate to get offended at something that you have to double down on everything you find? Where in my comment did you find an opening for someone politely correcting a preferred name, to turn it into a snarky taking over the person.
I fully understand that it isn't hard to use gender neutral or specific pronouns, and that they comfortably fits within many sentences, but you seem to be insisting that that there are no circumstances where someone might struggle... Can you really think of no insurance where they sounds at least ambiguous, like when it's unclear if you are talking about a specific person or a group of people, and then stumbling trying to correct, then wonder if you should correct, maybe that's offensive.... Just because you use a simple example doesn't justify the snark surrounding how others don't have to pay to do it.
Just because people in the past (and present) have overreached or minimized groups doesn't mean no one can have a valid thought in that direction. You may want to dismiss or ignore those that take advantage of the gender topic purely for the attention, or lie about sexual abuse for revenge or money, but that doesn't make it disappear. Understanding that the bad apples don't invalidate the group is fair, but you're using the vocal objections as false flags just as much as the media used the false arguments as reasons to minimize the groups themselves.
No, I'm more disappointed that those on Lemmy, a supposed left-leaning forum, are ok with trying to justify not using preferred pronouns.
And I'm offended because your entire comment reeked of "if you defend your gender pronouns, some hick who can't be bothered to read the name tag in front if them and gets so easily offended for being politely corrected a few times during a conversation, we deserve the right to discriminate against you." That's literally your last paragraph, so maybe go read what you actually wrote and are defending before getting upset about someone calling you out on it, whether or not you're ready to recognize it internally.
I've never once said people can't make mistakes, but this complete "well it's difficult and ignorance is always an excuse" that all of you seem to be conveying is ridiculous. And it's absolutely a taking over of a person: pronouns are part of how a person identifies, akin to their name. Your example used a convention full of people wearing name tags that had their names and their pronouns on them. So, you can't read? You can't listen and hope you hear someone use the pronoun in a sentence? You can't go, "Hm, lemme do a quick Google and see how people use zhe/zher in a sentence."
Again, that would be like saying, "I can't pronounce Rajesh, even though you've politely corrected me several times, but this time you got upset so now I'm either calling you Steve or potentially just never bringing you up again." That was your entire comment, "This is too difficult for some people, so they don't have to ever learn."
Nor have I ever said that trans folks are justified in overreactions to people making genuine mistakes, but the attitude in this thread seems to be "it's ok to not take them seriously or dismiss them," which isn't ok.
We can argue the minutiae of very specific situations where it is or isn't justified, but overall, I don't see a situation where there should be confusion around "they." If you're having a conversation with or about someone, you likely understand the context around the conversation and should, without much difficulty, be able to follow and understand who "they" is referring to in regards to being a singular or plural pronoun. Especially if you're at a convention, assuming business/professional since you mentioned name tags, you should be smart enough to figure it out quick enough.
If you're reading and can't understand "they," you've either missed context or the author has failed to adequately define who "they" is in that instance. In 2024, I imagine you can look it up for a book, or maybe ask the person in the conversation to clarify if you're not sure. It's not hard, it's laziness on the part of those who "just can't get with the times."
Doesn't make what disappear? Can you show me actual, statistical evidence to back up how many people are lying and just seeking attention? This reeks of conservative victim blaming and dismissal of actual victims.
Does it happen? Sure, but I highly highly doubt it happens in any meaningful amount for your statement here to bear any wait beyond, again, victim blaming.
I have no idea what you're trying to convey here beyond something akin to "well, not all men." I'm not accusing every person of being transphobic that struggles to adapt to new pronouns, but they're also words, you can learn them quickly, especially in your native language. And being offended if someone continues to correct you is more of a reflection on you, the individual who can't or won't adapt, to understand that "this is too complicated" isn't a valid excuse after a certain point.
And my entire thing, this whole comment chain, has been about how using proper pronouns is showing respect for someone, and y'all are making any excuse you can possibly think of to try and find situations where disrespect is justified due to your own failings or inability to grow.
Trans people have enough to deal with, is asking other people to use breath expelled from their lungs to show them respect, even with grace periods for adapting, really asking for the fucking moon here? Like, seriously, all of the controversy around trans people, and pronouns is the hill y'all want to die on? Seriously?
And as I pointed out in my original comment, you're allowed to not use new pronouns or respect them or whatever, but you're not allowed to be upset when society treats you in kind.
So I'm not going to address this whole list of responses to comments you twisted around in order to be offended. I'm not dying on a hill of refusing to treat trans people with respect, my entire comment was aimed at cautioning against getting bent out of shape when people struggle a little bit with a new (to them) bit of culture and language.
Yes, we all understand that it's not 'hard', but no matter how much you want everyone to see it your way, treat it with as much importance as you do, to some it's going to take a bit and if you take that as an attack and attack back, you're doing more harm than good.
My takeaway from the entire conversation is that if someone refuses to make a good faith effort at using a preferred pronoun, they're a dick. If someone understands the importance and makes a moderate good faith effort but struggles getting it right and you judge or mock them for it, you're the dick. And that second audience is bigger than you give credit for.
Unless you're providing statistical evidence to back up your claims, I'm not interested in discussing further.
You can continue making whatever excuses you want to justify your mild transphobia, but I'm done debating with you, and haven't even read this response because it's nonsense.
Whatever excuse you need to justify how an individual's request for you to respect their pronouns, their identity as a human being, is up for debate because it somehow inconveniences you.