this post was submitted on 16 Nov 2024
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[–] voldage 9 points 2 days ago (21 children)

Well seal clubbing is pretty bad for one. But the point isn't whenever there are bad traditions, but whenever tradition is a good or bad reason to do something. Rites themselves do nothing, burying or burning the body does. Understanding why you're doing something is vastly better than doing it because of some (possibly reasonable but unknown) ancient reason no one is able to point out. Taboo of incest is less related to traditions, and more to biology which causes people not to be attracted to their siblings in most cases. There is no ceremony or ritual to prohibition of incest, so I'd say it's not a tradition. The tradition that have existed, however, was inbreeding of royal families, that wanted to keep their blood pure, which led to copious amount of incest and genetic defects. Many traditions rose from the dominance of one group over another and existed to legitimize this dominance further. Tradition of women being unable to vote, earn money or chose their spouse was born from the many generations of oppression. Tradition of black people being segregated away from white in USA was born out of dehumanization of slaves. There are many cases of traditional honor suicides (like seppuku) or honor killing (like stoning of women accused of adultery) in different traditions as well.

I could keep listing "bad traditions with bad reasons" but that's not the point I've originally made, more of a reply to your point about traditions being born out of useful or natural/survival reasons, which I believe those examples should disprove. The point is still that doing something solely because of tradition is bad, you need knowledge to do that well and in current age there is absolutely no reason not to seek that knowledge. In the past, when people were illiterate an easily digestible oral tradition was useful thing, but we're way past times when we have no good way to ensure the complicated reasons for doing things are preserved. What if some tradition results in oppression of some people and it's source is unknown or so ancient it's no longer applicable, should it be upkept? Conversely, should the ritual blood sacrifice be kept in the celebration of plentiful harvest to appease the gods, or should you only keep the parts like dancing around the bonfire and socializing, because those things are fun and healthy for the community?

If there is wisdom hidden in the tradition, then you want to figure it out, but if it's kept cryptic, unknown and attempts to research it are met with disdain because someone tries to compromise your tradition, then it's probably better to fuck around and find out what would happen if you didn't perform the tradition. And if something bad happens, then at least you can write it down and pass to the next generation as the actual reason for doing things. I seriously doubt there is anything left in human traditions that was figured out in the past, and is currently impossible to decipher or comprehend just by analysis, without even doing empirical tests. And if for some reason something isn't, then do those tests and find out. If you're worried about some arcane knowledge of the ancients that is too enigmatic for us to understand just by looking, you can try doing something differently in isolated environment, with various precautions and on limited sample. No reason to keep it as "tradition" instead of "reason", especially since the underlying reason could have been good, but due to no one knowing what it was, the method could have degenerated over the generations to the point of being ineffective.

[–] kopasz7 4 points 2 days ago (20 children)

Knowledge comes from practice. Humans always did things first before they gained the knowledge. Think of apprenticeship and the natural sciences for example.

What I have a big issue with is today's notion that application follows knowledge. A top down approach where academia is isolated from the feedback of the real world. What the hell do I mean by that?

A business or an artist goes bust if they do not perform well, they have direct risks attached to their work. While we can produce 'knowledge' (institutional knowledge), new (made up) economic theories, new (un-replicable) psychological explanations and so on, without any apparent problem. The natural selective feedback is missing. Academia is gamified, most researchers know they could be doing more useful research, yet their grants and prospects of publications don't let them.

So when I hear reason and understanding casually thrown around, I smell scientism (the marketing of science, science bullshit if you will) and not actual science. Because no peer review will be able to overrule what time has proven in the real world. And traditions are such things that endured. Usually someone realizes and writes another paper, disproving the previous one, advancing science.

Don't get me wrong, there are and were many unambiguously bad traditions by modern standards, and I'm sure there will be more. But we, the people are the evolutionary filter of traditions. We decide which ones are the fit ones, which ones of the ones we inherited will we pass down and which to banish into history.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago (11 children)

But we, the people are the evolutionary filter of traditions. We decide which ones are the fit ones, which ones of the ones we inherited will we pass down and which to banish into history.

Tradition is the lowest common denominator, and relying on our collective filter for social evolution is the least efficient metric by which to evaluate productive change; tradition is the worst reason.

Just give me one example where tradition is not the worst reason for doing anything (I know you did already but I am convinced tradition is still a worse reason that sadistic pleasure, both as a valid justification and in terms of net-negative suffering outcomes).

[–] kopasz7 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm not convinced this is a valid reason. It's really just another way of saying "because I want to", which is still a better than tradition.

[–] kopasz7 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Subjective. I think it is way worse. Or "to see the world burn", "to make humanity extinct".

Be it a moral or technical angle, there is many worse than "because our ancestors did it this way and we still came about".

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

As another commenter replied to you, you're conflating bad outcomes with good reasons.

"To watch the world burn" is still a better reason, even if the outcome is the same, or worse.

[–] kopasz7 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

A 'good reason' is a useless illusion if it doesn't lead to good outcomes.

A good reason is not something that follows the form A->B.

Last I checked people don't live in Plato's abstract plane of perfection, but in the imperfect and chaotic reality. A 'good reason' is a terrible one if it leads you or me to ruin, period.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I think the problem here is you've assumed my usage of "good" and "bad" are referring to the net reduction / increase of suffering.

I've been using the term "worst" as synonymous with "least valid". So yes, within my context, good reason implicitly follows the form A->B.

Seriously, think about it for a moment. without knowing whether the OUTCOME is good or bad, what is a good REASON?

If you found your friend bleeding out, slipping in and out of consciousness, life and death situation, and a cop chases you all the way to the hospital, do you think the cop is going to think you have a good REASON for speeding?

Tradition is the least valid reason (in terms of epistemology) for doing anything.

Saying "because" is just straight up invalid.

alternatively:

[–] kopasz7 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You understood nothing of the meaning. You argue on a textbook definition. Do you understand what tradition is?

Can you not see the difference of evolutionary and arbitrary?

Just because != tradition.

You underestimate how much is (successfully) driven by heuristics at every moment.

And please, keep the formal logic where it belongs, the paper. I studied enough logic to know how infexible of a tool it is to deal with the problems of the real world.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

We're arguing about semantics, of course I'm going to argue about the textbook definition.

I'm not denying tradition has often had a deeper meaning behind it which has resulted in good outcomes.

All I've been saying this entire time is that as far as REASONS go, tradition IS the least valid.

If you choose to conflate "good reason" with "good outcome", go argue with a dictionary.

[–] kopasz7 -1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Typical predictionist world view. "Trying to lecture birds how to fly, because we have the Navier-Stokes equations."

This is the same logical error that collapses the economy (eg. in 2008). Trying to predict the world, trying our damnedest to shoehorn it into a reductionist model. And then we act surprised, "nobody could have seen that coming", when a black swan event happens. 99% days were 'following' the rule, one day it crashed erasing all preceding. So how correct is a prediction like that, not 99% in my view. (In face of unpredictability, risk reduction and resiliency is the solution, not more prediction.)

If we want to engage in mental exercises that have no relation to the real world, then sure let's turn to the textbook. Just make sure you don't forget to look up when crossing the road, traffic rules can't overwrite physical ones. In the same vein as outcomes are real, reasons are made up.

(Just as you can find an infinite number of mathematical functions that fit a set of points. You can create an unlimited supply of models that explain an event, yet fail when a new data point is collected. Is the real world at fault then or the model?)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You're literally too stupid to argue with, I'm not wasting my time even reading this shit.

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