dragontamer

Refuse to hand over their jurisdiction to the military. Declare the military to be an unlawful invasion and a break of 10th Amendment rights. Etc. etc.

At that point, you're turning the local police over to the Protester's side. And the Police hold strong sway over the local judges and politicians. FOP in particular is powerful lobbying group because they hold the blessings of the Police.

What is Trump going to do? Order the military to fire upon the Police? Lulz. That's not how any of this works, and its not how coups work either. Over control of fucking St. Louis? Its not even worth the hassle.

Need to put down a big protest in St Louis? Send in troops with live rounds, none of that less lethal bullshit. Maybe it takes a couple days longer to get them there, maybe there aren’t quite as many boots on the ground as you wanted, maybe they get deployed in kind of dumb ways.

This is so fucking stupid I'm wondering if you're beginning to troll me.

So what happens to St. Louis police in this scenario? You're saying that the Police will give up their authority to the Federal level? That's severely anti-Republican on all fronts.

There's political forces at play here that you're seemingly completely ignorant about. Do you think the local chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police would allow military action to take place in their jurisdiction? Do you think that soldiers would be treated more (or less) specially than the local police? Do you not see how this causes distrust in the two groups?

Do you think Trump is effective at recruiting and merging organizations so that such political actions proceed smoothly? (IE: Do you think St. Louis Police would deputize the US Military, or vice versa, to share authority in a way that both sides agree upon?)

And that ignores the long-standing US Military tradition of staying the fuck out of local issues. The military command knows they're a bunch of killers. They don't want to deploy locally.

So you're saying its like Swatting but even better?

Cool. Lets see how that plays out.

Incompetence means they won't be able to get anything done at all. Which leads to the rise of SS or other loyalist police groups (in the case of Putin: KGB/FSB).

You're ignoring a huge part of what makes fascism actually work. The ability for orders to be carried out at all.

Secondly, its not military powers that allowed SS to help Hitler or KGB/FSB to help Putin. Its police powers that let them do that. And Donald Trump has royally fucked his reputation with the FBI, the closest thing to a proper police agency.

I'd keep an eye to see if Trump can successfully take over FBI, because that's where the worst-case scenario lies. But FBI lost their headquarters back in 2016 because Trump fucked them over, and Trump still hates them because of Jack Smith's most recent investigation. So I'm betting on incompetence here.

Force means jack shit. Police powers are the powers to launch investigators and build intelligence. Knowing who and how and why to arrest people is the power of the Police. And a corrupt police is the most dangerous.

Military? They can shoot but they don't know what to do after that. There are Military Police units, but they're too small for any real action. Its FBI and other police agencies that have the real power that you're talking about.

US Neighborhoods aren't organized into "illegal" parts and "legal" areas.

A mass deportation scheme means hassling, and likely invading, many legitimate homes of legitimate citizens. And once we start talking about what Republicans hide in their homes, its.... well... the usual stuff. Porn, Guns, and the like. But that's not the kind of things that Republicans like revealing to federal officials.

Any mass deportation scheme will involve getting large numbers of Republicans personally involved into the mess. Maybe there's no risk of deportation (especially if they're white). But its still a huge hassle, and having legions of police and/or military going door-to-door looking for illegal anything makes anyone uncomfortable (even if they're "only" hiding guns and porn in their basement).

I'd expect most Republicans to demand to see the warrants and close their doors until proper documents are shown. Which then provides Undocumented the cover they need (ie: now the Undocumented can do the same thing: just ask for a warrant and close the door otherwise).

Doesn’t matter. A fascist at the head of government, whose party is in line behind him, controlling all branches of the federal government, having enough military support, can shush as many opinions as he wants.

The military is incredibly weak when it comes to domestic matters. Without police training, they will be incompetent.

There's a reason why part of Hitler's rise required the rise of the SS, a separate branch of the military AND police that was loyal to Nazism and Hitler alone.

What Trump is going to do next is cut off the heads of our Military and try to bring them under his control. What will actually happen is that US Military will become incredibly weak, as leaders are the experts in navigating the bureaucracy and actually getting things done. Installing dumbass loyalists at the top won't do much, and I'm not convinced that there's enough competent leaders in Trump's circles to actually do everything he wants to do.

Outrage can stop it if we present it in the correct argument to them.

What happens to the assets of illegal aliens that are deported? I bet that the police seizes it and then its auctioned off (or something close to that). So now we have a pretty straightforward story of federal level officials invading the homes of US Citizens and trying to steal their bitcoins.

The far-right outrage writes itself at that point, if they really go the route of mass deportations. But we need to make the event truly outrageous when it happens, and not just in a leftist mindset. The truth of mass deporations is horrific even to those with far-right viewpoints. But you have to frame the argument correctly.

Yeah that's called a US Army Private.

What you're ignoring is how fucking dumb an 18Y Old with a gun is. There's a fucking reason we don't use them in US Territories. When the bloodshed starts, it will be because dumbass high-school dropouts opened fire in an American neighborhood.

What you're also ignoring is that US Army commanders know this. They know how dumb their recruits are. Its the job of the commander to make sure the troop under them are put on missions where they have the correct and proper training. A "serious" Army Commander would refuse any immigration / customs job, because US Military troops are simply NOT trained for this. US Military are trained to kill people and should only be used to kill people. That's why we focus on using them outside of the USA.

Like, seriously. Do you expect a 18Y old high school dropout to handle a warrant over a house correctly?

And what will anyone be able to do about it?

We tie it to deep state federal officials invading private US Homes. And then Republican support collapses over the events.

Speak the language of the Republicans and they'll agree with you on this. Invading private homes with US Troops, looking for contraban (ie: illegal immigrants in this case) with mass warrants would be uncomfortable to even Republicans in these areas.

If Republicans really are cool with this then whatever. Onto the next bulwark. But we need to prepare our arguments and discussion points. But we will work to defend our political rights at each stage of this process as Trump tries to do random bullshit.

You say that. But the minute people's private homes get invaded by US Troops, US citizen's opinions will immediately change.

Republicans are strongly pro-4th Amendment and are distrustful of the police as well. Getting wrapped up in police raids just because you live in the wrong neighborhood will piss off a LOT of Republicans. And a mass program that forces citizens to ICE / Police / Military into your house (be it a massive push for warrants, or some other mass-scale law) would be a significant number of breaks with the Constitution.

Remember: the Republicans are "Deep State" fuckers who distrust federal officials. Do you really think they'd be cool with orders that let police into their private homes?

This is a border patrol agent invading a Miami Home to take that small boy on the right (Elian Gonzalez) back to Cuba.

This was a defining moment of the 1990s. What happened here was a Cuban family had a claim on Elian Gonzalez, meaning not only was he an illegal alien, arguably the US-side of the Family was kidnapping him. Gonzalez's father (Cuban side) pushed heavily for US to get Elian back. Ultimately, Clinton agreed with the Father and used deportation agents to capture the child and bring him back to Cuba (effectively deporting him).

Nonetheless, armed troops invading a Miami private home caused a national-level outrage event. Even though it was a 100% illegal alien with a 100% legitimate claim to be deported (ie: be reunited with his Father).

The stories of what will transpire here under Trump will be far more horrific and less gray. They will likely include US Citizens who forgot to hold onto a Driver's License and suddenly are disappeared (especially if he uses untrained dumbasses like US Military, composed largely of 18 year olds who were too dumb to go to college).

We can rely upon the outrage that will occur, but only if we document and take pictures of the horror. The focus needs to be on documenting the horrors as the next step. In any case, no reasonable troop will want to be seen as the man on the left, and no commander will want to be the one to sign their name okaying something like this again.

That also ignores 4th Amendment issues and court cases. How many homes and warrants are they going to issue? Just fucking everyone in a neighborhood? Like how do you actually make this work?

If it gets that far, and I'm not convinced it will, Troops aren't trained for immigration issues.

Do you think 18 year old dumbass Privates and Corporals know the difference between a Puerto Rican US Citizen and an illegal Mexican? Do you think US Troops have any training on police actions? Lawyers or courts?

That's a disaster waiting to happen. We use troops rarely because they're dumbasses with a gun. We give them exceptional fighting training, but no training on finer details of policing. Use of force will be too high, rights will be trampled, US Citizens will 100% get caught up as military has no fucking training on this subject.

If it gets that far, then we know what to do. Take pictures, document, build national level outrage.