this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2023
84 points (100.0% liked)

No Stupid Questions

35884 readers
3764 users here now

No such thing. Ask away!

!nostupidquestions is a community dedicated to being helpful and answering each others' questions on various topics.

The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:

Rules (interactive)


Rule 1- All posts must be legitimate questions. All post titles must include a question.

All posts must be legitimate questions, and all post titles must include a question. Questions that are joke or trolling questions, memes, song lyrics as title, etc. are not allowed here. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.



Rule 2- Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.

Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.



Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.

Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.



Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.

That's it.



Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.

Questions which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.



Rule 6- Regarding META posts and joke questions.

Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-question posts using the [META] tag on your post title.

On fridays, you are allowed to post meme and troll questions, on the condition that it's in text format only, and conforms with our other rules. These posts MUST include the [NSQ Friday] tag in their title.

If you post a serious question on friday and are looking only for legitimate answers, then please include the [Serious] tag on your post. Irrelevant replies will then be removed by moderators.



Rule 7- You can't intentionally annoy, mock, or harass other members.

If you intentionally annoy, mock, harass, or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.

Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.



Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.



Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.

Let everyone have their own content.



Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.



Credits

Our breathtaking icon was bestowed upon us by @Cevilia!

The greatest banner of all time: by @TheOneWithTheHair!

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

As we see there are 2 meanings of "so-called" that can be confused or misinterpreted, of which one implies falsehood and the other doesn't.

One. to show that something or someone is commonly designated by the name or term specified.

"Western Countries belonging to the so-called Paris club"

Two. used to express one's view that such a name or term is inappropriate.

"she could trust him more than any of her so-called friends"

Since so-called I feel is very often used to suggest that a title for something describes a meaning that isn't necessarily accurate, what's another term that simply expresses that something is titled something without judgment of the title?

all 29 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] reddig33 63 points 1 year ago

“Referred to as…” “Known as…”

[–] [email protected] 44 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I would use "what's known as", e.g. "Western countries belong to what's known as the Paris club"

[–] Zoomboingding 2 points 1 year ago

Colloquially

[–] xantoxis 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The problem here, linguistically, is that any phrase which means this will take on the meaning of falsehood automatically, over time. It's the same way that any respectable word that means "has a disability" eventually comes to be an insult and then a slur.

If you want to say something like that, the word "putative" is still pretty unfettered by negative connotations, but only because few people use it. If it were in common use, it would follow the same path as "so-called". A more reliable approach in the long-term is to say what you mean using more words instead of fewer:

She could trust him more than any of her friends; although she wasn't sure those people were really her friends, it remained to be seen.

It's actually the length and awkwardness of the sentence structure that makes it resistant to misinterpretation.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

I agree, even if you use another word like alleged, the word is in the sentence strictly to draw attention to the fact that the following information is of questionable validity, so by nature casts suspicion and distrust, even if the intent for the distrust is protective of the audience in a positive fashion.

[–] dezmd 6 points 1 year ago

So you're saying verbosity allows for more exactness of meaning, at the expense of the convenient efficiency of expecting inference to be employed by the recipient(s) of the message(s)?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

You're right, but the "so-called" only becomes suspicious when it's included unnecessarily.

From OPs example if you just omit it the sentence is fine and doesn't imply that the friends are not actually friends.

In the first type of usage, "so-called" provides information that the reader is unaware of, so it's use does not imply the name is inappropriate.

In the second type of usage it's presumed the reader already knows the name, inserting "so-called" emphasises that the subject has whatever name.

[–] TerrificTadpole 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I would just drop the "so-called" and put the term in quotes.

Western countries belonging to the "Paris club."

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

That's often also used in the other way though.

she could trust him more than any of her "friends"

[–] HappycamperNZ 2 points 1 year ago

Don't use the quote marks.

So called or quote for negative, neither for truthful/neutral statement.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Putative: pyoo͞′tə-tĭv adjective Generally regarded as such; supposed. Commonly thought or deemed; supposed; reputed. Commonly believed or deemed to be the case; accepted by supposition rather than as a result of proof.

[–] weariedfae 1 points 1 year ago

Yep, this is frequently used in my industry (science), depending on the person.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

"as it's called" or "as they're called"? It's a bit wordier but I think conveys the meaning you're going for without the negative connotation. I also think context should usually direct a reader/listener to or from any negative connotation for the "so called" usage. That said, it doesn't hurt to be clearer.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

"what is (generally/widely/typically/often) known as" comes to mind. Any variation of that would do the job.

It can also work not to use any term, but rather to introduce the name without fanfare. This implies a neutrality of judgment. "Western countries belonging to the 'Paris Club'." Even in speech one can often hear the introduction of a term by subtle changes in tone of voice.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] seaQueue 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"Western countries belonging to the group known as the Paris Club" works too

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

yup. in my mind, ka is included in the aka

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

alleged maybe? She could trust him more than any of her alleged friends.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hmm, every option I thought of has itself a dual-meaning.

Designated, denominated, entitled, dubbed. I suppose choose the one least likely to be confused for its homonym in the specific context.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Or just rewrite the sentence. Perfectly cromulent when you're getting stuck in the thesaurus and having a hard time finding the "ideal" word.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I believe "per se" or "so to speak" can be used in that context too... per se

Western countries belonging to the Paris club so to speak.

[–] scarabic 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Western Countries belonging to the “Paris Club.”

Using quotes indicates directly that this is being relayed as something someone else says or said.

It is factual and has less obvious shade than “so-called.” But someone could still say it can be used to cast shade:

My son’s “friend” stole his school lunch.

This is however irony, where you say the exact opposite of what is meant. So I’m not sure that counts.

But some hint of shade could be unavoidable since any time you report anything as something someone says, you offload accountability to a party not present, and invoke the possibility that that other party is fallible. Hearsay is inherently suspect. Why are you telling me what someone else said? Don’t you know yourself whether it is true?

But I don’t think using quotes necessarily jumps out as a way to mark something suspect.

Scientists have been searching for a “theory of everything”

the “Cambrian explosion” saw new forms of life evolve

he was enamored with “crew cab” trucks.

Pretty neutral. This might work, with the exception of deliberate irony.

[–] HardlightCereal 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

She could trust him more than any of her apparent friends

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

“… alleged friends” ?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] PlogLod 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think quote-unquote can have the same implications, unfortunately, but good one I hadn't thought of. Maybe there's more.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

What about "commonly referred to" or "often termed"