this post was submitted on 08 Oct 2024
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[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

“There is a long tradition of conservative circles fretting about international influences on the German languages,” said Stefanowitsch. “It used to be French, and now it’s mainly English”.

Heh.

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.

--James Nicoll

However, guidelines issued by the body regulating the use of Standard High German orthography have clarified that the use of the punctuation mark colloquially known as the Deppenapostroph (“idiot’s apostrophe”) has become so widespread that it is permissible – as long as it separates the genitive ‘s’ within a proper name.

Hmm.

So how do they deal with the more-complex cases?

https://www.thesaurus.com/e/grammar/whats-the-rule-for-doing-a-possessive-after-the-word-s/

Singular nouns ending in S

Rule 1: In general, you form a possessive singular noun (both proper and common) by adding an apostrophe and the letter S to the end of the word.

  • the flower’s petals

  • Riley’s car

That’s simple enough. It’s when the car belongs to a person named Chris, or we’re talking about the petals of a crocus that the rules get blurry. Most experts and guides say you should add an apostrophe and an S to both proper and common nouns to make them possessive even when they end in S. So, using the examples above, it would be:

* Chris’s car

  • the crocus’s petals 

Not everyone agrees with this method, however, and some, such as the Associated Press Stylebook, nod in favor of adding only an apostrophe to make a proper noun possessive, such as:

  • Chris’ car

  • Dickens’ novels

To add even more confusion, AP Style also has an exception if the word following the possessive starts with an S, stating that in those cases only the apostrophe should be added. So it would be:

  • Texas’s people

Texas’ streams 

In 2019, the AP raised quite the ruckus when they tweeted that they were considering adding an S after the apostrophe for singular proper nouns, as in Mavis Staples’s album or Martha Reeves’s concert. To date, no changes have been made, but as you can see, it’s an ever-evolving, highly volatile topic. 

Plural nouns ending in S

Rule 2: Plural nouns, on the other hand, generally don’t get an extra S, just an apostrophe. Most experts suggest you form the plural form of the word first, then add the apostrophe.

For example: 

  • the Joneses’ house 

  • the classes’ rules

Most say possessive words should generally read as you would speak them. 

The one-syllable rule

When it comes to historical proper names or those found in the Bible, however, there is another rule many choose to follow.

Rule 3: According to some, those words with two or more syllables typically just get an apostrophe after the final S, while one-syllable words getting both an apostrophe and an S.

For example:

  • Jesus’ teachings

  • Zeus’s temper

Some people apply it to more recent names as well, such as Dr. Seuss’s writings or Kenny Rogers’ songs, while others believe they all should also get an additional S. 

Singular nouns in plural form

Rule 4: When it comes to singular nouns that are plural words, they typically just get the apostrophe.

For example, the Beatles is a singular noun, but it’s in the form of a plural word. So, it would be:

  • The Beatles’ album

For the sake of …

Rule 5: Whether a noun ends in an S or not, if it’s followed by the word sake, most say it just gets an apostrophe.

For example:

  • for goodness’ sake

  • for conscience’ sake 

  • for appearance’ sake

Others, such as the Chicago Manual of Style, say if the word before sake ends in an S, then it should just get an apostrophe. Others should get an apostrophe and an S. So, it would be:

  • for goodness’ sake

  • for conscience’s sake 

  • for appearance’s sake

Like, there's a whole rabbit hole to go down there.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

In German it would be like:

Franks Haus.

Franz' Haus.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

A way without the apostrophe could also be „Franzens Haus“ (but that’s out of style since a few decades)

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (4 children)

While you're right that there is a rabbit hole to go down, we just didn't have a solution for this so far.
"Matthias' car" translates as "Matthias Auto", which could also be a new Disney character.

The problem is much less frequent in German, though, because our plurals don't generally end with a 's'.

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 month ago (9 children)

Language is democratic. If people are starting to speak or write in a certain way, that is the correct way to use a language. I know that we have all these organizations trying to define "correct" language use, but if many Germans are deciding that they want to use this apostrophe, that should be correct.

And there is another issue: There are a lot of people looking down on people who can't read or write correctly. You can see this here: people are calling other people itiots just because they are using an apostrophe in a not officially accepted way. Which should never, never happen

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

First off, a) Standard German is not a language that's spoken anywhere in the country in the first place, not even at the Tagesschau studios. It's a solely literary language, defined somewhat semi-democratically by book and newspaper editors and b) this is about orthography, not language qua language.

This is not about telling people whether they should say "ich bin am gehen" or "ich bin gehend" -- both are incorrect in Standard Geman, the reason it doesn't have a present progressive is that people couldn't agree which form to use, and the different forms are quite far apart. So it's avoided by editors, hence it's not part of the language, "ich gehe gerade" is used instead which is (IMNSHO) unnatural but also not terribly awkward. That kind of thing is way more at odds with how people actually speak than orthography, and accepted without second thought: Because Standard German is a Dachsprache. If I want to talk to a Bavarian, compromises will have to be made.

Then, an orthography has to be, and this might be surprising to Anglophones, one thing: Logical and predictable, inferrable from how you speak and what things mean. The idiot's apostrophe is not. It makes no sense, it follows no rule. If I say "gehn" then I can infer, from a uniform rule, that I should write "gehen" -- because folks in the south say "gehe", and well a compromise is when noone is happy. But using a different rule for "the dog's bone" and "Jane's bar"? There's no justification for that. None. It introduces a distinction where there's none.

The issue I have with this whole thing isn't that it seems to be influenced by English, the issue I have is that it makes as much sense as English orthography.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago (2 children)

What is your opinion on people using "would of" instead of "would have"?

I don't think that accepting the lowest common denominator or following the tyrrany of majority is particularly democratic, when it's clearly destroying the meaning of the language.

Sure, so let's say we accept it, but then how do we teach children these new rules? It'll only result in further degradation of the language because nobody knows what is right or wrong anymore.

[–] DempstersBox 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Well for starters, kids aren't going to whinge about it- they're just going to use it, generally correctly for their setting.

Headlines when a royal family kid is bilingual, every day regular-ass survival when a poor border town kid does it, unprompted.

I mean, the royal kids totally would of got it on their own, right?

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Language is democratic. If people are starting to speak or write in a certain way, that is the correct way to use a language

What's popular is what's correct. We get it.

That's why the language is evolving based on influencers, people too stupid to KNOW the syntax guiding the path forward.

Nice going.

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[–] dance_ninja 20 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Meanwhile in English, the semicolon is dead -- long live the dash.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I regularly use the semicolon; it makes me happy.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago

Can relate ;)

[–] dance_ninja 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

As long as you're communicating your ideas clearly, to each their own!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

Skibidi toilet my Ohio, skibidi toilet

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

the semicolon is dead -- long live the dash.

I see what you did there. But a colon would be best, right ?

[–] dance_ninja 2 points 1 month ago

True -- the colon still has its utility, but the dash is multifunctional (perhaps less formal).

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago

As long as it's an em dash (—) and not a hyphen (-) I'm OK with it. A double hyphen is acceptable but not ideal.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 month ago

Hide yo' kids, hide yo' wife, the lingua franca English is coming for yo' Deutsch.

[–] njm1314 12 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Truly the English are a plague unto the world

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I cringe every time I see it, but just because I don't like it doesn't mean it should be wrong. It is super wide spread to use it that way (even more wide spread than the "correct" way), so it should be considered legal imho. Sidenote: I also hate that the plural of "house" isn't "hice" in eglish, but what can I do.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Rice isn't the plural of rouse, either. Dice is valid as singular and plural, no relation to douse. English is a language of exceptions rather than rules.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago (2 children)

The singular of "dice" was traditionally "die", but it seems to be well on its way out

[–] LowtierComputer 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Is it? Everyone I play tabletop games with uses die for singular.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I do too, but I think that those of us that play tabletop ganes probably think more about dice a lot more than the average person

[–] LowtierComputer 4 points 1 month ago

There are dozens of us!!

[–] DempstersBox 2 points 1 month ago

I have recently encountered a fellow who used 'die' as the plural

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago (4 children)

This battle has been lost a long time ago in Dutch. Although to be fair, for "Kati's kiosk" it would have been fine anyway, since otherwise the pronunciation changes.

Language keeps evolving, and English is coming for us all.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

My main gripe with it is people that don't use a ', but literally any other uptick/accent they can find, as you can see with Rosi`s Bar in the article. Also commonplace is places that sell 'Crepe’s'

But tell me, how does the German pronunciation of Katis and Kati's differ? It's still spoken the same way.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago

I was talking about the Dutch pronunciation, so a long vs a short i.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago

Considering that American's use apostrophe's against even the proper American English form...

They can probably just use the idiot part.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago

Languages and grammar change over time.

[–] d00ery 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

I normally complain about American English and the atrocious things they do to the language, so I'm on the side of the high German here.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago (2 children)

There is no better way to wind up Americans than writing in British English.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Schools in Germany regularly teach BE rather than AE.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Fortunately.

Unfortunately, the quality of that teaching largely depends on the individual teacher, which greatly varies, and for which there barely is a lower limit, though.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago

There are plenty, let's be honest mate lol

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

Watch out. A Trojan's Horse!

[–] captainlezbian 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

How’s it feel rest of the world? To have English seep into your language after so many centuries of only having your languages seep into English.

But for real, I get both sides here, apostrophic possession is nice, it’s convenient, it’s useful, and it’s foreign. I’m sure many Germans are mad, but it seems like it’s Germans doing the thing pissing them off.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

In German we simply add an s for the genitive, and we add an apostrophe when a letter is missing.

For example Jacob's book would be "Jakobs Buch" ¹ but John's book would be "Johannes' Buch", not "Johannes's Buch" ² and also not "Johannes'' Buch" ³.

¹ not "Jakob's Buch", which is called the "Deppenapostroph" - fool's apostrophe

² fool's apostrophe

³ fool's apostrophe and a second apostrophe to mark the cancelled letter

The genitive is nice, convenient and useful, yes. But there's no reason to add an apostrophe when no letter is missing.

(And as explained above, no, it is not foreign, this isn't changing anything in spoken language either, it's just a common spelling error due to commonly seeing it in English)

To draw a comparison regarding how annoying it is for anyone who cares about written language: It's quite similar to as if people in English suddenly started marking the plural with an apostrophe. Or if "would of" instead of "would have" would become correct.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

How’s it feel rest of the world? To have English seep into your language after so many centuries of only having your languages seep into English.

French: French

Although, aside from the great vowel shift, we gladly contributed at fucking up English orthography.

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