Vote for Biden no matter what, yankees, because otherwise everyone is fucked.
this post was submitted on 24 Apr 2024
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American here:
I really hope it doesn’t pan out that way, but to be honest, it’s hard not to see Europe as asleep at the switch here. Sure, everyone was surprised Trump won in 2016, but it became really obvious what the trajectory was the second he took office, and it seems that most European countries simply refused to account for that in a lot of different ways.
Now, I’m seeing European countries hoping really hard that Trump doesn’t win… but not much progress on collective geopolitical annd strategic efforts that aren’t already closely tied to the US. The EU’s collective military power compared to the US is a bit of a joke, as is the current state of their military supply and logistical lines (which directly underwrite and sustain military power). And the ESA’s current launch capability is comparatively minuscule compared to what NASA has done for decades.
Don’t get me wrong: I know Europe spends way more on their citizens, and that is awesome. But though it’s less direct, making sure the big stick actually exists when countries like Russia or China (or, conceivably in a Trumpian-US future… the US) stop paying attention to normal diplomacy, and start exercising diplomacy through other means.
More pointedly: yes, this is to a large degree the unfortunate return of the “might makes right” school of thought that many people - and pointedly, most European politicians - thought was mostly relegated to history.
The often repeated trope that the only country contributing to NATO is the US must stop. In fact, based upon percentage of GDP per capita, the US isn’t even #1! That award belongs to Poland. The US needs to strengthen its relationship with the EU for global stability, not weaken it. The EU’s contribution to NATO has increased dramatically and there are now 10 countries (mostly in Europe) who are at the stated and agreed upon goal of >2% of GDP spent on NATO. Trump will destroy our relationship with the EU and empower his multi-country pig sty of dictators. Only an idiot (or a dictator) would want that.
Sauce: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/nato-spending-by-country
I feel like European leaders are panicking because they are realizing they have to actually lead on military and foreign policy rather than being given the binary choice to support the USA or do nothing. This isn't something they've done in generations.
Nah, it's because Trump is batshit insane. People like predictability - everyone sane wants stability (the best among us want stability that progresses to a better state of the world).
Can you say for certain that Trump wouldn't just raid Fort Knox and then flee the county? He doesn't seem to have any desire to actually be president outside of the legal immunity... we're sort of in a Ceaser situation here.
Trump may have started it, but you also had issues with Ukrainian aid that forced Democrats to support the Republican Speaker of the House. The USA is starting to show cracks in wanting to stay involved in Europe. If that happens, the EU or other organization needs to be able to put together a plan. Right now, Europe can't.
but you also had issues with Ukrainian aid that forced Democrats to support the Republican Speaker of the House.
Yeah that's not what happened.
Shit literally JUST HAPPENED, and you're already lying about it outright.
It is usually good form to reply with a correction, if just to inform the others reading.
OK, no problem.
It was basically the other way around. The Republican Speaker of the House was forced to support the bill that the Democratic Senate had passed (and the President was ready to sign). Many hardliners in his (the Speaker's) party are not happy with this decision. There was already a split forming there (Speaker Johnson recently signed the thing to keep the Government running while others in his party wanted to hold it hostage like they always do), but this has made it worse.
And to clarify, no the Speaker doesn't have the power alone, but he has a lot of control over his party, and he and the Party Whip will get the votes they need, if that's what they choose to do. So the buck stops with him when it comes to votes like this.
So as I understand it, pretty much the opposite of what you said.
Hopefully that cleared it up, I appreciate that you actually seem interested in finding out.
It's not so much support the US or do nothing. The choice was support our interests, or trust that the US will sufficiently support them anyway. That trust is starting to break down, and Europe is learning just how complacent they've been.
If Europe can legitimately become less dependent on US support, that's likely good for almost everyone in the long term. It's going to be really tough for European countries in the short term though. If they fail, it's amazing for the US, and really bad for Europe.
I don't think it will be good for the USA if Europe fails.
There has been a multi-decade push to try to get Europe as whole to take more ownership of nearby security issues as the USA is no longer in the hyperpower position it used to be. People live pointing out that the EU has a higher GDP than the USA, but European countries still rely on the USA for basic force projection.
If Europe fails to reduce dependence on the US, they will functionally become a vassal state, which works well for the US.
Not really. Europe is rather lacking in natural resources, has a lackluster military, and has a population with high economic demands.
And we don't want to. We are a post-war society. Europe has fought any war that can be fought. We are done with it. Fuck war.
And we got the Nobel peace prize for it.
Well now we have to prepare for war so we can have peace.
Europe is slow at the uptake, but the only power in the world that could theoretically beat us is the USA. I mean we'll wake up (hopefully), wipe putin and the kremlin, sternly look at china while we go independent from them, and then we'll probably go back to sleep once again somewhere in 2100.
We are a post-war society.
Uh, there is a war on European soil today.
Yes 😢
They can still support the US, as all of them have done for the last 79 years and are doing still now.
It isn't whether Europe can or can't support the USA, it is that there is a very real possibility that the USA may not be there for Europe in the medium and long term.
A lot of European foreign policy has been reactionary to American foreign policy because it was cheaper and politically easier just to have Americans do it or at least make the strategic decisions. We are now getting to a point where American leadership isn't assured.
The Russian invasion of Ukraine is a lot scarier for Europe if it can't count on the USA to back NATO up.
I upvoted your comment, because I like the underlying idea that Europe has been "protected" so far because they could not sustain themselves, which is absolutely true. But the previous order collapsing isn't necessarily bad.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The date is November 7, 2024, two days after Donald Trump edged out Joe Biden in the U.S. presidential election, and already the once-and-future president has announced he will force Ukraine to strike a peace deal with Russia and cede territories the Kremlin has claimed as its own.
Crucially, while it was possible to dismiss Trump’s first term as an aberration — a geopolitical squall that could be weathered — his return would cement the shift in American foreign policy as a fact that can no longer be ignored.
He would push Zelenskyy to cede Crimea and parts of the Donbas to convince Russian President Vladimir Putin to end the war, a plan first reported by the Washington Post.
“The fact that Congress felt the need to do that and President Biden was willing to sign it tells you that there are real concerns in Washington,” said Brad Bowman of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a Washington-based think tank.
While the bloc has made some progress, agreeing to pool cash to buy weapons for Ukraine and ramp up arms manufacturing, actually delivering on these polices has been slow because of failures to pay up, disputes over how to raise the money and squabbles about where to spend it.
To make matters worse, even as they struggle to present a common front, Europe’s leaders would likely be coming under pressure from a host of Trump-led policies that might as well be designed to pull them apart.
The original article contains 2,357 words, the summary contains 246 words. Saved 90%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
I would say not much. That guy is 1 stroke away from not being the president anymore if he does become the president again.
It's not Trump that you should really fear, he's an idiot. It's the people backing him to seize power that worry me.
Yeah there's a long list of very healthy evil psycho Nazis behind him. That sucks. It will be a multigenerational battle just to keep our country from being nazi.