this post was submitted on 10 Jan 2024
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Donald Trump told the president of the European Commission in 2020 that the US would “never come help” if Europe was attacked and also said “Nato is dead”, a senior European commissioner said.

Multiple news outlets said the exchange between Trump and Ursula von der Leyen at the World Economic Forum in Davos in 2020 was described in Brussels on Tuesday by Thierry Breton, a French European commissioner responsible for the internal market, with responsibilities including defence.

“You need to understand that if Europe is under attack we will never come to help you and to support you,” Trump said, according to Breton, who was speaking at the European parliament.

According to Breton, Trump also said: “By the way, Nato is dead, and we will leave, we will quit Nato.”

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[–] someguy3 10 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

You're vastly overestimating Russia's capability and underestimating Europe Nato's capability. Russia can't even invade Ukraine, one of the poorest countries. There's no way they can take on Europe Nato in an actual war. And UK's and France's nuclear umbrella is plenty.

The only good part of your statements is number 4 where Russia acts as a terrorist state. There's no good way out of a nuclear power acting as a terrorist.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

Russia can’t even invade Ukraine

The Institute for the Study of War:

A Russian conquest of all of Ukraine is by no means impossible if the United States cuts off all military assistance and Europe follows suit. ... The Ukrainian military with Western support has destroyed nearly 90% of the Russian army that invaded in February 2022 according to US intelligence sources, but the Russians have replaced those manpower losses and are ramping up their industrial base to make good their material losses at a rate much faster than their pre-war capacity had permitted. A victorious Russian army at the end of this war will be combat experienced and considerably larger than the pre-2022 Russian land forces. The Russian economy will gradually recover as sanctions inevitably erode and Moscow develops ways to circumvent or mitigate those that remain. Over time it will replace its equipment and rebuild its coherence, drawing on a wealth of hard-won experience fighting mechanized warfare. It will bring with it advanced air defense systems that only American stealth aircraft—badly needed to deter and confront China—can reliably penetrate. Russia can pose a major conventional military threat to NATO for the first time since the 1990s in a timeframe set to a considerable extent by how much the Kremlin invests in its military. Since Moscow has already committed to an ambitious post-war military expansion program the US cannot be confident that the timeframe will be very long.

Provocations increase, a mistake is made, skirmishes break out, Russian make surprisingly quick (short term) advances, ...

There’s no way they can take on Europe Nato in an actual war

They're likely to make significant gains in the Suwalki gap, especially if the US has defacto left NATO and the EU is divided (Wilders, Orban, etc.). Wikipedia:

There is broad consensus ... that any hypothetical attack on NATO would involve an attempt to capture the Suwałki Gap ... reasons for the hypothetical attack are seen not to be primarily the occupation of the three former Soviet republics by Russia but to sow distrust in NATO's capabilities, to discredit the military alliance and to assert Russia's position as one of the major military powers. ... In 2016, the RAND Corporation ran simulations that suggested that with the NATO forces available at the time and despite less military presence in the area than in the Soviet times, an unexpected attack would have Russian troops enter or approach Riga and Tallinn in 36–60 hours from the moment of the invasion. The think tank attributed the swift advance to the tactical advantage in the region, easier logistics for Russian troops, better maneuverability and an advantage in heavy equipment on Russia's side. In general, the Russian Armed Forces, according to NATO's expectations, will try to overwhelm the Baltic states, cut off its only land route to the rest of NATO and force a fait accompli situation before the Alliance's reinforcements are able to come by land (air reinforcements are much more expensive and are vulnerable to surface-to-air strikes), only to face a dilemma between surrendering the area to the invader and directly confronting Russian troops, potentially escalating the war to a nuclear conflict. Ben Hodges, a retired US Army general who served as a high-ranking NATO commander and who co-authored a paper published by the CEPA on the defence of the Suwałki Gap, said in 2018 that the Suwałki Gap was an area where "many (of) NATO's [...] weaknesses converge[d]". ... Both results were catastrophic: in the American simulation, Polish units would incur about 60,000 casualties in the first day of war, and NATO and Russia would fare a battle that would prove very bloody to both sides, losing about half of the participating forces within 72 hours. Zima-20's results, which are interpreted with some dose of caution, showed that by day 4 of the invasion, the Russians already advanced to the Vistula river and fighting in Warsaw was underway, while by day 5, the Polish ports were rendered unusable for reinforcements or occupied, the Navy and the Air Force were obliterated despite NATO's assistance, while the Polish units dispatched close to the border could lose as much as 60-80% of personnel and materiel.

...

And UK’s and France’s nuclear umbrella is plenty.

In a scenario where the US has left NATO, and the EU is divided (Orban, Wilders, Le Pen, ...), would the UK or France risk starting a nuclear war over a small sparsely populated area in the Baltics? Russia might gamble that NATO would not be willing to risk nuclear armageddon, after they abandoned Ukraine.

TLDR: high risk. Important to dissuade Russian stupidity by increasing defense spending. Important that the US stays in NATO.

[–] someguy3 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

is by no means impossible

"is by no means impossible". Like really that says it all. They don’t say it will happen. They don’t say it’s likely. All they do is rule out that it’s impossible.

the end of this war will be combat experienced and considerably larger t

Except they lost all their highly skilled troops. And their tanks. The aircraft they used before grounding them. And their BMPs. And most of their other equipment. And spent all their shells, they're getting shells from North Korea FFS. Having a higher troop number doesn’t mean all that much. Industrial base? Sure they can remake that but it will take at least a decade, if not two.

Ah yes like the sanctions on Iran have eroded... This can go on a long time if the west wants. And we really have no reason to want to trade with Russia. Russia’s gas and oil is slowly being cut off, both because of war and climate change. They have very little to offer. China may pick up the slack but what happens when you only have 1 buyer? The buyer has price control.

What’s more likely is that the technological, industrial, and economic difference between Russia and the west / EU will continue to widen.

Suwalki gap

Written before Russia showed they are barely more than a farce. And before the recent war showed how things can be brought to a crawl with guided missiles and drones. What else, and how Russia’s military is now degraded. And how Sweden and Finland will soon become part of Nato. I guarantee you Nato is rewriting their plans to hold the gap and Baltics.

UK or France risk starting a nuclear war

..........Are you serious? No they will not start a nuclear war. They will start a conventional war. You sure jump the gun to nukes.

The whole point of Nato is going to war for allies. We all saw how appeasement and letting Hitler take one country at a time worked in WW2. This is literally the whole impetus and whole reason for Nato. Everyone saw how WW2 played out. Europe knows better than we ever will.

Abandoned Ukraine? Are you serious? It was not part of Nato.

Increase spending? Sounds good. But Russia couldn’t even deal with Ukraine’s budget plus old cold war era surplus from the west. They certainly can’t deal with Europe’s modern military or budget/economy.

Important to keep the US in? Sure. If the US leaves, will everyone give up, let it crumble into pieces, and let Russia take them over? Lol no.

I think I'm done here. Cheers.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The experts cited largely disagree with your assessment, which is why they are so worried about Trump withdrawing from NATO, why leaders are ramping up military spending, and why countries like Japan and South Korea are having serious discussions about acquiring their own nuclear deterrent for the first time in decades. They wouldn't do this, if they weren't genuinely worried.

I get the idea that you're angry about what these experts write.

Given this is an emotional reaction, perhaps you should ask yourself if you're not suffering from a cognitive bias.

It is possible that the reason you are annoyed is because you don't want the experts to be right about how dangerous the current situation is. It is very scary stuff. Fear can cloud our judgement on stuff like this.

[–] someguy3 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

You're knowingly citing things from before this war when everything they thought about Russia was thrown out. In addition to the new information about the effectiveness of guided missiles and drones.

And yes people are worried about the US pulling out of Nato. That does not mean that nato will fall into pieces and let russia take them over if the US leaves. Different things. And that does not mean they will not increase their own budget to deal with an ~~emergent~~ terrorist russia. Different things.

You're conflating and confusing a ton of things, in both this response and the previous ones.

Ah the strawman. I really think that wraps things up. Cheers.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

The Institute for the Study of War published the first article I cited on December the 14th 2023.

I'll quote another relevant bit:

... The Kremlin has made great strides in its long-term project to gain control of the Belarusian military, and victory in Ukraine would likely get it the rest of the way. The Russians would thus likely deploy either permanently or in a nominally rotational way an airborne division (three regiments) and a mechanized infantry division (likely three regiments) in southwestern and northern Belarus as well. They would be able to threaten a short-notice mechanized offensive against one or several NATO states with at least 8 divisions (21 mechanized or tank regiments and brigades and three airborne regiments), backed by significant reserves including the 1st Guards Tank Army, which would be reconstituted around Moscow and was always intended to be the premier strike force against NATO. They could make such an attack and still threaten the Baltic States and Finland with the forces already present there and reinforcements they have announced they intend to station along the Finnish borders. Russian ground forces would be covered by a dense air defense network of S-300, S-400, and S-500 long range anti-air and anti-missile systems with overlapping coverage of the entire front. ... NATO would be unable to defend against such an attack with the forces currently in Europe. The United States would need to move large numbers of American soldiers to the entire eastern NATO border from the Baltic to the Black Sea to deter Russian adventurism and be prepared to defeat a Russian attack. The United States would also need to commit a significant proportion of its fleet of stealth aircraft permanently to Europe.

They don't have to conquer the entirety of Europe. Just a small territory like the Suwalki Gap, something NATO without the US might not want to risk a nuclear war over. Present NATO with a fait accompli at a time when it's weaker than it's ever been, due to a US withdrawal. Severely undermine NATO credibility and trust in the alliance.

Once again, I understand you don't agree and that you're getting angry, but I am simply repeating what plenty of experts say on the matter.

As you say, agree to disagree.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

Seems like you don't understand the role of NATO.

Once one nation is attacked, all band together to fight the invader. They aren't going to just sit by and wait. It is explicitly stated that they won't. Even if Europe feels divided.

Because every single one of those nations knows that if NATO breaks, they will be the next target in Putins campaign of terror. And they will not be able to defend themselves alone. Even the right-wing politicians know this.

So if you think France or the UK will just sit by when a sparsely populated NATO area is invaded, then think again. Because if they don't then no country will help them when Putin arrives.

NATO is a pact of egoistic altruism. Help others to help yourself. Right-wingers are all about helping themselves.

[–] someguy3 2 points 10 months ago

No kidding huh. He has no idea why NATO was formed and exists.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Right-wingers are all about helping themselves.

Populists are surging across Europe and the western world.

We are commenting on an article about a right wing populist with ties to Russia called Trump. He likes to help himself. He's on record as saying NATO is dead and that the US wouldn't help NATO allies.

You will find similar articles about Wilders(the Netherlands), Le Pen(France), Orban(Hungary), Fico(Slovakia), Kneissl(Austria), Schroeder(Germany), Wilders(Belgium), Farage(UK), Salvini(Italy), AFD(Germany) and many many others who have (suspected) ties to Russia and/or China.

IRC Kneissl, the former Austrian foreign minister, now lives in St. Petersburg. Salvini's embarassed himself. Other populists have replaced them. Former German chancellor and mainstream politician Schroeder receives a million a year from Russian energy companies and continues to criticise the West, not Russia. He is also quite good at helping himself.

It's very scary, but all it takes for a mistake to happen, is for Russia to think that Europe and NATO is less united than it is, especially after a Trump win, populist gains, and Ukraine losing the war due to Western support drying up.