this post was submitted on 22 Dec 2023
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[–] Grimy 46 points 11 months ago (49 children)

I've had friends that were cocaine addicts and some that really hit the bottom. This seems insane to me, this isn't a fun and easy drug like weed imo. I've always lumped coke with meth and heroin.

[–] TheBlackLounge 43 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Its harm potential is somewhere in between. To put it in perspective, alcohol is worse than heroin. And like alcohol addicts, your friends should be able to get a clean and safe source to reduce damage, and the help they need without any fear of persecution.

You can't criminalize problems away. It evidently didn't help your friends.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)
[–] YarHarSuperstar 20 points 11 months ago (3 children)

What is the source of that image? I'm questioning its validity. They have cannabis as more dependency forming and physically harmful than GHB. Unless it means something it doesn't say, like they've weighted the results by how many users there are of each drug or something.

[–] scottywh 9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

LSD shouldn't even be pictured... I question the validity, as well.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

It’s completely bullshit.

I love GHB but it needs to be way higher on dependence. It’s extremely easy to be addicted to. Benzos as well. Benzos are just under heroin in levels of dependency.

Edit: full agree with you, LSD isn’t even on this chart if the chart was real.

[–] djdadi 2 points 11 months ago

I'd argue benzos should be higher than heroin for dependence. You can't cold turkey a bad benzo addiction, but you can with heroin.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Yeah I'm guessing the source data for this chart is "random boomer's feelings".

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

You should totally question the validity, but I'd pause before dismissing it entirely. It's supposedly based on an opinion survey of psychiatrists and a group of 'independent experts' (footnote incoming) published in the Lancet in 2007. Edit: I said things that weren't true about the Wikimedia image that I have removed - it's based on the table near the bottom of the article.

DOI is 10.1016/S0140-6736(07)60464-4

You should ask our friend ANNA if she'S heard people talk about this during her time in the ARCHIVEs.

It's not a completely objective harm/dependence measure, for sure, but the opinions of experts aren't meaningless - it's worth reading the article and judging the authors' claims rather than this image. Though I will say the number of participants seems really low.

On LSD,

  1. the opinion thing should be underlined and considered heavily (particularly in the UK, where rave culture is/was more top of mind than other places and LSD is/was in the mix, albeit I don't think to the same degree as MDMA and other compounds), but also

  2. as crazy as it may sound, dependency can develop in some users. I'd argue it looks VERY different than dependence to other substances (frequency is obviously much lower, given rapid tolerance, and some people may not call once a week or every two weeks dependency*), but it still exists. Given that this is basically an expert opinion poll it's actually placed more or less where I'd expect to see it.

*Though in online discussion groups for folks interested in such compounds, those folks often do call that level of frequency a sign of dependency. Should note I'm talking specifically about macrodoses, not microdosing.

(Footnote) from page 1049: "These experts had experience in one of the many areas of addiction, ranging from chemistry, pharmacology, and forensic science, through psychiatry and other medical specialties, including epidemiology, as well as the legal and police services."

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Interesting - linking again, which pulled it from an expert survey in the UK.

[–] deltasan 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

I think they were asking for the source because the link you shared is just Wikipedia to a file. I was wondering about the original source of data too.

Edit: full link came out weird like yours. No wonder we were confused.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

They end in .svg but load as a page - both yours and mine.

That wasn’t the case for you? Which browser/app?

[–] deltasan 1 points 11 months ago
[–] qaz 1 points 11 months ago

The data in the paper is obtained solely from questionnaire results obtained from two groups of people: the first comprised people from the UK national group of consultant psychiatrists who were on the Royal College of Psychiatrists’ register as specialists in addiction, while the second comprised of people with experience in one of the many areas of addiction, ranging from chemistry, pharmacology, and forensic science, through psychiatry and other medical specialties, including epidemiology, as well as the legal and police services; the experts are not named and were chosen by the authors.

[–] djdadi 1 points 11 months ago

Thanks for the graphic, but many of those are laughably wrong. I guess it depends on their specific definitions. But for example solvents do irreversible damage with every use; meanwhile heroin is a drug available with a prescription (usually just in hospital use) and doesn't do almost any long term damage on its own.

Cocaine is also cardiotoxic at any level

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