this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2023
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Lemmy.World Announcements

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There has been significant discussion in recent weeks regarding Meta/Threads. We would like to express our disappointment with the negative and threatening tone of some of these discussions. We kindly ask everyone to engage in civil discourse and remember that not everyone will share the same opinions, which is perfectly acceptable.

When considering whether or not to defederate from Threads, we're looking for a decision based on facts that prioritize your safety. We strive to remain neutral to make an informed choice.

First, there seem to be some misconceptions about how the Fediverse operates based on several posts. We’ve compiled some resource links to help explain the details and address any misunderstandings.

Fed Tips , Fediverse , ActivityPub

Initial Thoughts:

It seems unlikely that Meta will federate with Lemmy. When/if Meta adopts ActivityPub, it will likely affect Mastodon only rather than Lemmy, given Meta's focus on being a Twitter alternative at the moment.

Please note that we have a few months before Threads will even federate with Mastodon, so we have some time to make the right decision.

Factors to Consider:
Factors to consider if Meta federates with Lemmy:

Privacy - While it’s true that Meta's privacy settings for the app are excessive, it’s important to note that these settings only apply to users of the official Threads app and do not impact Lemmy users. It’s worth mentioning that Lemmy does not collect any personal data, and Meta has no means of accessing such data from this platform. In addition, when it comes to scraping data from your post/comments, Meta doesn’t need ActivityPub to do that. Anyone can read your profile and public posts as it is today.

Moderation - If a server hosts a substantial amount of harmful content without performing efficient and comprehensive moderation, it will create an excessive workload for our moderators. Currently, Meta is utilizing its existing Instagram moderation tools. Considering there were 95 million posts on the first day, this becomes worrisome, as it could potentially overwhelm us and serve as a sufficient reason for defederation.

Ads - It’s possible if Meta presents them as posts.

Promoting Posts - It’s possible with millions of users upvoting a post for it to trend.

Embrace, extend, and extinguish (EEE) - We don't think they can. If anyone can explain how they technically would, please let us know. Even if Meta forks Lemmy and gets rid of the original software, Lemmy will survive.

Instance Blocking - Unlike Mastodon, Lemmy does not provide a feature for individual users to block an instance (yet). This creates a dilemma where we must either defederate, disappointing those who desire interaction with Threads, or choose not to defederate, which will let down those who prefer no interaction with Threads.

Blocking Outgoing Federation - There is currently no tool available to block outgoing federation from lemmy.world to other instances. We can only block incoming federation. This means that if we choose to defederate with our current capabilities, Threads will still receive copies of lemmy.world posts. However, only users on Threads will be able to interact with them, while we would not be able to see their interactions. This situation is similar to the one with Beehaw at the moment. Consequently, it leads to significant fragmentation of content, which has real and serious implications.

Conclusion:
From the points discussed above, the possible lack of moderation alone justifies considering defederation from Threads. However, it remains to be seen how Meta will handle moderation on such a large scale. Additionally, the inability of individuals to block an instance means we have to do what is best for the community.

If you have any added points or remarks on the above, please send them to @[email protected].

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[–] EnglishMobster 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

I have my own theory as to why - the Digital Markets Act in the EU: https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/priorities-2019-2024/europe-fit-digital-age/digital-markets-act-ensuring-fair-and-open-digital-markets_en

Examples of the “do’s” - Gatekeeper platforms will have to:

  • allow third parties to inter-operate with the gatekeeper’s own services in certain specific situations
  • allow their business users to access the data that they generate in their use of the gatekeeper’s platform
  • provide companies advertising on their platform with the tools and information necessary for advertisers and publishers to carry out their own independent verification of their advertisements hosted by the gatekeeper
  • allow their business users to promote their offer and conclude contracts with their customers outside the gatekeeper’s platform

The interoperability is the big one. Since Threads isn't currently connected to the wider fediverse, that's probably one reason why they're not in the EU yet - because it's currently in violation of the Digital Markets Act. This also means that fears of "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" are likely overblown. Extending ActivityPub without working in tandem with the standards authorities to ensure interoperability means that they'd be (once again) in violation of the DMA.

I'm not saying Facebook is innocent. People actively say Facebook is malicious (not without cause, mind), but really - like all corporations - Facebook is self-serving. Facebook will always do the thing that is in their own best interest; they're sociopathic but not evil for evils' sake. And the DMA gives clear evidence that EEE is not in Facebook's best interest.

Let me quickly quote selected sections of the act itself:

The ability of end users to acquire content, subscriptions, features or other items outside the core platform services of the gatekeeper should not be undermined or restricted. In particular, a situation should be avoided whereby gatekeepers restrict end users from access to, and use of, such services via a software application running on their core platform service. For example, subscribers to online content purchased outside a software application, software application store or virtual assistant should not be prevented from accessing such online content on a software application on the core platform service of the gatekeeper simply because it was purchased outside such software application, software application store or virtual assistant.

...

The lack of interoperability allows gatekeepers that provide number-independent interpersonal communications services to benefit from strong network effects, which contributes to the weakening of contestability. Furthermore, regardless of whether end users ‘multi-home’, gatekeepers often provide number-independent interpersonal communications services as part of their platform ecosystem, and this further exacerbates entry barriers for alternative providers of such services and increases costs for end users to switch. Without prejudice to Directive (EU) 2018/1972 of the European Parliament and of the Council (14) and, in particular, the conditions and procedures laid down in Article 61 thereof, gatekeepers should therefore ensure, free of charge and upon request, interoperability with certain basic functionalities of their number-independent interpersonal communications services that they provide to their own end users, to third-party providers of such services.

Gatekeepers should ensure interoperability for third-party providers of number-independent interpersonal communications services that offer or intend to offer their number-independent interpersonal communications services to end users and business users in the Union. To facilitate the practical implementation of such interoperability, the gatekeeper concerned should be required to publish a reference offer laying down the technical details and general terms and conditions of interoperability with its number-independent interpersonal communications services. It should be possible for the Commission, if applicable, to consult the Body of European Regulators for Electronic Communications, in order to determine whether the technical details and the general terms and conditions published in the reference offer that the gatekeeper intends to implement or has implemented ensures compliance with this obligation.

Simply:

  • Content should not be restricted to just your site

  • You need to allow third-party apps

  • You must publish your API publicly

Failure to comply causes:

  • Initial fine of up to 10% of the company’s total worldwide annual turnover (or up to 20% in the event of repeated infringements)

  • Daily fine of up to 5% of the average daily turnover

  • Systemic infringements can cause the EU to break up the company entirely

The law has teeth. It started to take effect in May, but there's a period of time before compliance is expected (likely we won't see much compliance until 2024). The route of least resistance for Facebook is to adopt ActivityPub and allow third-party ActivityPub apps like Fedilab to interface with Threads. They can't make changes to the protocol because then they won't be compliant with the Digital Markets Act. I wouldn't be surprised if Instagram and maybe even Facebook itself start to federate as well.

[–] Alkider 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I just hope it will apply to everyone and not just people in Europe, since they would be only ones that are protected by the act technically.

[–] astropenguin5 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

laws governing the internet from large entities like the United States and the European Union generally effect everyone because losing either of those markets and having to verify where a user is from is a massive hit to growth and profitability. for example, i was able to do a data request mandated by the EU's GDPR and got my data from reddit and got my data back from reddit the other day.

[–] Alkider 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] astropenguin5 1 points 1 year ago

It's by no means universal, it is certainly possible for companies to change how their stuff works in Europe and the us, for physical products it's more common for there to be differences but still things like requiring usb-c charging ports is benefitting American consumers too.

But yeah in general internet things and large companies have the same thing everywhere.