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this post was submitted on 07 Jun 2024
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It's... not that long or complicated. Palestinians were there during the latter Ottoman Empire. The Israeli state is a project conceived after WW2 which, since its inception, has been illegally settling in land where Palestinian people already lived, and forcefully displacing them. You may not like what Hamas does, but like, what do you expect when you kick people out of the land they inhabit, a pat in the back or some resistance?
You say "illegally settling" but I think that might be a little reductive, no?
The reason it happened after WW2 is because the entire rest of the world was like, "displaced Jews? Not in my country! Ship them off to the middle east where they came from!!”
It's not really Israel's fault that happened. Most of the people sent there were literally given no other option.
No, it's not reductive. Being a targeted minority doesn't automatically grant you the right to kick people out of their homes in a given arbitraty region at gunpoint.
Not really, the communist block was rather accepting of Jewish people. There were plenty of pogroms in tsarist Russia which stopped happening in the USSR, and there was even an Autonomous Jewish Oblast in the USSR at the time.
It is Israel's fault that this happened, the whole idea of the country basically since its Inception was that of a Jewish ethnostate, which implied kicking people out of their homes, and the state became expansionist so it started illegally and violently colonising land that was already inhabited. The fact that Jewish people have been oppressed for millennia is a fact, but that doesn't change the fact that the very conception of the modern state of Israel is flawed from the very beginning. And I mostly don't blame Israeli citizens themselves, since I guess for the most part they were people looking for a place free of oppression, but the modern state of Israel means less oppression for them at the expense of extreme oppression towards native locals, which is absolutely wrong.
There was a jewish state there when the romans invaded over 2000 years ago. Look it up, their state was called judea and the romans named it (something similar to palestine) after conquest finished.
Yes but you can't claim ownership of a territory that is currently inhabited by people who didn't expell you themselves or their immediate ancestors, based on a 2000 year old historical claim.
But it does counteract the 'isreal came into existance 70 years ago' BS
No it doesn't, the Jewish people 2000 years ago weren't a state, weren't the only people in the region, and there's no continuity. The claim is ridiculous
So what? Palestine wasn't in continous existance either.
Not as a state, no, my point here isn't arguing for the recognition of Palestine as a state, it's arguing against the forceful and violent removal of a local population. Whichever nation the locals belong to is a matter of self-determination, not up to me to decide.
Nobody here was arguing for the forceful removal of the local population.
Defending the modern state of Israel amounts to that much, since it's what it stands for
There were multiple Jewish kingdoms, not one unified state that the modern day nation state can claim it's descended from. The kingdom of judea is pretty small compared to the modern borders.
Never mind that trying to claim that isreal is the continuation of a 2000 year old kingdom with nothing in between, is a pretty brain dead argument.
Which is why I didn't make that argument. Learn to read. The same can be said about palestine too btw, both have a history mixed of existance and non-existance.
Native jews, christians and muslims in historic Palestine only need to point to the fact their parents or grandparents lived on a specific bit of land, while Zionists need to point to a state thats been dead for 2000 years.
Bringing up Judea in respomse to OP who never mentioned any other historical state kinda does implicitly make that argument.
Also your reponse to volodya about how you're trying to counter the "israel came into existence 70 years ago bs" despite the fact modern day isreal did only come into existence 70 years ago and is completely detached from biblical israel or any historical Jewish state reeks of Zionism.
Yeah that totally justifies brutal ethnic cleansing...
Where the fuck did I say that? You permanently offended morons really need to learn how to fucking read and stop interpreting whatever you want into sentences that don't include it.
So then what relevance does it have to 2024?
Jews also lived in that area. For millenia. And they had been driven out before.
Jews have lived in a very complex diaspora for millennia. There hasn't at any point been an exclusively Jewish state in the Levant, let alone in the past 500 years. The claim is baseless, especially when it comes to settling lands already inhabited by Semitic people who also belong there, who Israel has been forcibly removing or outright murdering for more than half a century.
I don't see anyone handing weapons for use in retaking ancestral lands with no strings attached to native Americans, Aboriginal Australians, Uighur Turks, Normandy Britons, Anatolian Greeks... wait they did the last one just a century ago.
Nobody should have an ethno-state no matter what has happened to them in the past, it's lines on maps that are killing people in vast numbers and the more we can do to start moving away from the idea of humans "owning" land the sooner we will have a more peaceful world.
People can preserve their heritage and past without setting up checkpoints.
At this rate though I think it's going to take us to be gone for the world to stop getting ravaged for our desire to momentarily declare ourselves owners of a fraction of a mote of dust caught in a sunbeam.
I have not claimed that. They have are a right to live there, but not to an ethnostate. I want to make that clear.
The Palestinians are ethnically similar to the people that have lived in that area for millenia. Those people have mostly converted to Christianity and Islam.
The israelis are Eastern Europeans that changed their last name from Mileikowsky to Netanyahu.
Some Jews have lived in Palestine for the last millennia as well. Palestinian Jews. Not cosplaying Eastern Europeans.
If a Chinese person converts to Judaism he isn't suddenly a native to Palestine either.,